Where Did the Trinity Teaching Come From?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Alter2Ego, May 11, 2012.

  1. Alter2Ego

    Alter2Ego Member Past Donor

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    ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

    The fabricated term "godhead" goes hand in hand with the false trinity teaching that was officially introduced into Christianity by the ROMAN Catholics, beginning in 325 C.E. at the Council of Nicaea, when about 300 Catholic bishops met. At that time, Roman Emperor Constantine--a non-Christian who was not baptized until he lay dying--presided over the Nicaea Counsel and, as stated by the Encyclopedia Britannica:


    "Constantine himself presided, ACTIVELY GUIDING THE DISCUSSIONS, and PERSONALLY proposed... the crucial formula expressing the relation of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council, [that Christ was] 'of one substance with the Father.' "

    Keep in mind that Jesus died and returned to heaven in 33 C.E. and this idea that would later evolve into the trinity did not officially become Roman Catholic dogma until 325 C.E. (almost 300 years after Jesus left the earthly scene). Also keep in mind that the ROMANS who executed Jesus—prior to adopting Christianity as the state religion—had a long history of polytheism (worship of many gods). It was therefore a simple matter for the ROMAN Catholics to graft in various pagan false teachings in their corrupted version of Christianity. One such teaching became the "Christian" version of trinity or worship of a triune/triad (three-in-one) god.

    Christendom's trinity, written in Article I of The Catholic Faith, is defined as follows:

    "There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the maker and preserver of all things both visible and indivisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be three Persons, of ONE SUBSTANCE, POWER, and ETERNITY; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost."


    Although there are no scriptures in the Judeo-Christian Bible to support this false teaching, the Trinity dogma has been the central doctrine of Christian churches for centuries.

    This idea of a triune god was nothing new. It might surprise some to learn that among pagan nations that did not worship the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible, there were trinity gods in existence centuries before Jesus Christ appeared on earth in the 1st Century AD, and there were pagan trinities in existence during the 1st Century while Jesus was on earth. Below are three such examples, followed by the questions for discussion.



    1. In the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Egypt had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Horus, (2) Osiris, and (3) Isis.


    [​IMG]


    2. In the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Babylon had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Ishtar, (2) Sin, and (3) Shamash.



    [​IMG]


    3. In the 1st century C.E., Palmyra, which was an ancient city in Syria, had a triune god which consisted of (1) moon god, (2) Lord of Heavens, and (3) sun god.


    [​IMG]


    ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:
    It is true Jesus is the WORD in that he served as Jehovah's chief spokesman. Likewise, Jesus is a god, since "god" is simply a title that describes someone who is powerful. But he is not Almighty God Jehovah. The apostle Paul made it clear that the title "god" can apply to all sorts of individuals, as noted below:


    "For even though there are those who are called 'gods,' whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are MANY 'gods' and MANY 'lords,'..." (1 Corinthians 8:5)


    DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:
    1.
    Is the Trinity a Bible teaching?
    2. Did Jesus Christ, the founder of Christianity teach it?
    3. Did his early apostles and disciples who accompanied him teach it?
    4. Where does the word "godhead" come from?
    5. Does the word "trinity" appear anywhere in the Bible?
     
    Matt84 and Honky Kong like this.
  2. Marlowe

    Marlowe New Member

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    Thank you for that bit of information , so far it sounds plausible . I'm surprised that none of our other poster with strong views/conviction on this subject has picked it up yet - I wonder why . (wink)
     
  3. elijah

    elijah New Member

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    1. the term no, the concept yes
    2. the term no, the concept yes
    3. the term no, the concept yes
    4. Romans 1:20 & colossians 2:9
    5. see answers 1-3
     
  4. Marlowe

    Marlowe New Member

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    I'm afraid on closer examination its not as simple as the simple-minded believe it to be . There belief systems earlier than the Bible which proves that the christian TRinity concept was not unique but borrowed /copied .

    PAGAN ROOTS: THE TRINITY

    FOLLOWING the Christian dogmas seriatim, if we concentrate our attention upon one which provoked the fiercest battles until its recognition, that of the Trinity, what do we find? We meet it, as we have shown, northeast of the Indus; and tracing it to Asia Minor and Europe, recognize it among every people who had anything like an established religion. It was taught in the oldest Chaldean, Egyptian, and Mithraitic schools. The Chaldean sun-god, Mithra, was called "Triple," and the trinitarian idea of the Chaldeans was a doctrine of the Akkadians, who, themselves, belonged to a race which was the first to conceive a metaphysical trinity. The Chaldeans are a tribe of the Akkadians, according to Rawlinson, who lived in Babylonia from the earliest times. They were Turanians, according to others, and instructed the Babylonians into the first notions of religion. But these same Akkadians, who were they? Those scientists who would ascribe to them a Turanian origin, make of them the inventors of the cuneiform characters; others call them Sumerians; others again, respectively, make their language, of which (for very good reasons) no traces whatever remain -- Kasdean, Chaldaic, Proto-Chaldean, Kasdo-Scythic, and so on. The only tradition worthy of credence is that these Akkadians instructed the Babylonians in the Mysteries, and taught them the sacerdotal or Mystery-language. These Akkadians were then simply a tribe of the Hindu-Brahmans, now called Aryans -- their vernacular language, the Sanscrit(1) of the Vedas; and the sacred or Mystery-language, that which, even in our own age, is used by the Hindu fakirs and initiated Brahmans in their magical evocations. It has been, from time immemorial, and still is employed by the initiates of all countries, and the Thibetan lamas claim that it is in this tongue that appear the mysterious characters on the leaves and bark of the sacred Koumboum.

    "For from this Triad, in the bosoms, are all things governed," says a Chaldean oracle. The Phos, Pur, and Phlox, of Sanchoniathon, are Light, Fire, and Flame, three manifestations of the Sun who is one. Bel-Saturn, Jupiter-Bel, and Bel or Baal-Chom are the Chaldean trinity; "The Babylonian Bel was regarded in the Triune aspect of Belitan, Zeus-Belus (the mediator) and Baal-Chom who is Apollo Chomæus. This was the Triune aspect of the 'Highest God,' who is, according to Berosus, either El (the Hebrew), Bel, Belitan, Mithra, or Zervana, and has the name "the Father." The Brahma, Vishnu, and Siva,(4) corresponding to Power, Wisdom, and Justice, which answer in their turn to Spirit, Matter, Time, and the Past, Present, and Future, can be found in the temple of Gharipuri; thousands of dogmatic Brahmans worship these attributes of the Vedic Deity, while the severe monks and nuns of Buddhistic Thibet recognize but the sacred trinity of the three cardinal virtues: Poverty, Chastity, and Obedience, professed by the Christians, practiced by the Buddhists and some Hindus alone.

    The Persian triplicate Deity also consists of three persons, Ormazd, Mithra, and Ahriman. "That is that principle," says Porphyry, "which the author of the Chaldaic Summary saith, 'They conceive there is one principle of all things, and declare that is one and good'." The Chinese idol Sanpao, consists of three equal in all respects; and the Peruvians "supposed their Tanga-tanga to be one in three, and three in one," says Faber. The Egyptians have their Emepht, Eicton, and Phta; and the triple god seated on the Lotos can be seen in the St. Petersburg Museum, on a medal of the Northern Tartars.

    Among the Church dogmas which have most seriously suffered of late at the hands of the Orientalists, the last in question stands conspicuous. The reputation of each of the three personages of the anthropomorphic godhead as an original revelation to the Christians through Divine will, has been badly compromised by inquiry into its predecessors and origin. Orientalists have published more about the similarity between Brahmanism, Buddhism, and Christianity than was strictly agreeable to the Vatican. Draper's assertion that "Paganism was modified by Christianity, Christianity by Paganism,"(5) is being daily verified. "Olympus was restored but the divinities passed under other names," he says, treating of the Constantine period. "The more powerful provinces insisted on the adoption of their time-honored conceptions. Views of the trinity in accordance with the Egyptian traditions were established. Not only was the adoration of Isis under a new name restored, but even her image, standing on the crescent moon, reappeared. The well-known effigy of that goddess with the infant Horus in her arms has descended to our days, in the beautiful artistic creations of the Madonna and child."

    It was so , many centuries before the events in your bible ..

    READ MORE HERE and learn :


    http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/christianity/TheTrinity.html


    ,,,
     
  5. Never Left

    Never Left Banned

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    The Gospel of John, (whole book).
     
  6. raymondo

    raymondo Banned

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    Spot on . Simple fact but probably far too stressful for the Christian Dogmatists .
    At a simpler level , it was Paul .
    But never Jesus apart from his "chats" --probably added for effect , to Dad .
     
  7. Marlowe

    Marlowe New Member

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    Yep - meanwhile I've come across this :


    [video=youtube;0pxsp3etQHA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pxsp3etQHA&feature=related[/video]
     
  8. Marlowe

    Marlowe New Member

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    wrong - see the video I've posted . Bible/Gospel are often self-contradictory

    also watch - listen and learn from this :


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGCtsJvh0bQ&feature=related[video=youtube;YGCtsJvh0bQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGCtsJvh0bQ&feature=related[/video]
     
  9. Alter2Ego

    Alter2Ego Member Past Donor

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    ALTER2EGO -to- ELIJAH:
    Your responses to Questions 1, 2, and 3 are in error. Not only is the word "Trinity" not to be found anywhere in the Judeo-Christian Bible, the concept of a 3-prong god is nowhere to be found within its pages because Jesus and his early disciples who accompanied him never presented such a concept. Please provide scriptures that you feel suggest "the concept" of the pagan Trinity, and I explain to you why they are not talking about a trinity god.


    ALTER2EGO -to- ELIJAH:
    With reference to the scriptures at Romans 1:20 and Colossians 2:9, my guess is that you are using the King James Version. Well, let me give you a few pointers on the KJV. Its translators were admitted Trinitarians. The quotation from Article I of the Catholic Church is found within the Articles of the Church of England for which the King James Bible was translated. I quoted Article I in my opening post and will quote it here again for ease of reference.

    Christendom's trinity, written in Article I of The Catholic Faith, is defined as follows:

    "There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the maker and preserver of all things both visible and indivisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be three Persons, of ONE SUBSTANCE, POWER, and ETERNITY; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost."

    Elijah, it was because of their Trinitarian ideology that the KJV translators inserted fabricated words—and a total of 40 verses of fabricated scriptures within the KJV. One of the fabricated words found in the KJV is the word GODHEAD.

    Keep in mind that the last book of the Bible to be written was completed in 41 AD or the 1st century AD. The word "Godhead" did not show up in the Bible until the 14th century AD when a Roman Catholic priest named John Wycliffe published an English translation in which he introduced the word "godhede." Remember, it was the Roman Catholics that formalized the pagan trinity from the get-go in the 4th AD--more than 300 years after Jesus Christ left the earthly scene. By the time the King James Version was published in 1611 AD, the word "godhede" had been changed to "Godhead." Below are two sources that confirm this.


    http://www.timeandbeing.com/Application/Doctrine/Godhead/GodheadTerm.htm

    http://www.bukisa.com/articles/439307_the-godhead
     
  10. Alter2Ego

    Alter2Ego Member Past Donor

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    ALTER2EGO -to- NEVER LEFT:

    You need to be specific as I regard that as a non-answer. Suppose you provide at least 3 or 4 examples by citing chapter and verse within the book of John, and then explain why you feel each of your cited chapter and verse is proof of the 3-prong god?
     
  11. Alter2Ego

    Alter2Ego Member Past Donor

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    ALTER2EGO -to- MARLOWE:

    People who don't understand the Bible—rather than admit they don't understand what they're reading and ask for help—often turn around and make the erroneous claim that you're making here: that the Bible is self-contradictory. How about you present a few examples of these "contradictions" by identifying Bible book, chapter, and verse and then explain why you feel each instance is a "self-contradiction"? Can you do that? Perhaps I'll be able to clarify matters for you once I see what you're referring to.
     
  12. elijah

    elijah New Member

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    So you never use the KJV or NKJV?


    What do you do with this?

    5 But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property, 2 and kept back some of the price for himself, with his wife’s full knowledge, and bringing a portion of it, he laid it at the apostles’ feet. 3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? 4 While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.” 5 And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came over all who heard of it. 6 The young men got up and covered him up, and after carrying him out, they buried him.
     
  13. Alter2Ego

    Alter2Ego Member Past Donor

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    ALTER2EGO -to- ELIJAH:
    I own two print versions of the King James Bible, but I use them mostly as reference sources for the following reasons.

    1. The King James Version is written in 17th century, archaic English. Because the English language has changed during the past 400 years since the time that the KJV was first published, I find it to be impractical for me to be reading 17th century English as it interferes with the ease of understanding the scriptures. I don't want anything to interfere with my understanding of what Jehovah is instructing me to do, because my life is involved. I don't play games with my life.

    2. The King James Version contains 40 verses of fabricated scriptures that don't belong in the Bible at all. For that reason, I don't find the KJV to be a trustworthy source.
     
  14. Alter2Ego

    Alter2Ego Member Past Donor

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    ALTER2EGO -to- ELIJAH:
    You are quoting from Acts chapter 5. In the future, be sure and give the Bible book and chapter so I can locate the scriptures more easily in my Bible.

    Let me ask you something regarding the quotation you presented above.

    QUESTION 1: Acts 5:3 speaks of the holy spirit. Whose holy spirit is it?

    CLUE: Focus on the very last sentence in verse 4.



    Let me ask you two more questions. Just give me a simple "yes" or "no" answer, and then we'll take it from there. I just want to understand your position, which a "yes" or "no" answer will provide. Your answers should be based upon Christendom's definition of the Trinity, which I am once again quoting for ease of reference.

    Christendom's trinity, written in Article I of The Catholic Faith, is defined as follows:

    "There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the maker and preserver of all things both visible and indivisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be three Persons, of ONE substance, POWER, and eternity; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost."


    QUESTION 2: The holy spirit/holy ghost is supposedly the third "person" of the Trinity, which would make it SINGULAR as 1 person out of the 3 within the trinity; correct? Is that what you believe?


    QUESTION 3: According to Christendom's definition of the Trinity, quoted above, the holy spirit/holy ghost is co-equal to Jehovah (the wording the Roman Catholics used in their definition of the Trinity is: "one power.") Do you believe the Bible supports that?


    Remember, now, don't explain to me why you believe any of this. We will get to that later. Just tell me "yes" or "no" to Questions 2 and 3 above. Also, let me assure you that this is not a battle between us. This is a discussion between two Christians. It's not about either of us, it's about true worship and making sure what we believe is acceptable to Jehovah. Keep that in mind; okay?
     
  15. elijah

    elijah New Member

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    1. God the spirit
    2.yes
    3.yes
     
  16. Marlowe

    Marlowe New Member

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    First of all did you watch the 2 videos I've posted ? Did you understand it ? If so what are your comments .

    Secondly , you're right , I do not understand the bible , nore understand those who've in the past , waffled/flanneled and reied to fob me off with BS explanations .

    Third, I'm a product of a technical college - nuts/bolts + spanners/bread + butter brigade - NOT a theological social parasite , however it doesnt mean I havent given th bible some thought.
    Due to my snail pace typing speed , I'll just post a link and if you feel upto it , then by all means clarify each of the 23 contradictions complete with relevent Bible Chapters , mentioned therein . I wont that's do for now .

    I wont C + P , here's the link :

    http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/cv/scb/scb01.htm


    cheers ...

    .
     
  17. Alter2Ego

    Alter2Ego Member Past Donor

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    ALTER2EGO -to- MARLOWE:
    I'm not the one confused about the scriptures. You are. So what makes you think I'm interested in watching someone's self-promoting video in which they spout their personal philosophies? I can make a video and do the same thing. For that matter, anybody can get away with doing that. YouTube is over-run with self-promoters with their "bright" ideas.

    Neither am I interested to look up weblinks with other peoples opinions of what they claim are Biblical contradictions. At three other websites where I've debated atheists, they produced the identical verses of scriptures that they downloaded from the same website. I debunked every single one of what they thought were contradictions by giving them logical explanations. After I'd devoted hours of my time typing up the explanations, they still continued arguing that the scriptures they presented were proof of Biblical contradictions. Been there, done that. Do you think I have that kind of time to waste?

    This conversation is one-on-one, between me and you. If your entire argument against the Bible is based on the opinions of what somebody else said in a video or posted on their blog, you're in bad shape. Either you present me with your own feelings and questions about the matter, or else I'll pass.
     
  18. Alter2Ego

    Alter2Ego Member Past Donor

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    ALTER2EGO -to- ELIJAH:
    You are evading my direct question and giving me an reply that is not in the verses you presented in your previous post. Below is your quotation copied verbatim from Acts chapter 5. This time, I will print in red and bold what I want to draw your attention.


    The verses at Acts 5:3-4 said nothing about "God the spirit." In fact, the words "God the spirit" are not found anywhere in the Judeo-Christian Bible, and you know this very well. You avoided answering a direct question by presenting me with a Trinitarian response that is not found in the scriptures. In other words, you are not allowing God's word to correct your thinking because you are talking around what's written in your own copy of the Bible. You are doing yourself a disservice and allowing Satan the Devil to win.

    "{16} All scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for SETTING THINGS STRAIGHT, for disciplining in righteousness, {17} that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16-17)
     
  19. Alter2Ego

    Alter2Ego Member Past Donor

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    ALTER2EGO -to- ELIJAH:
    Since you say, the holy spirit is a singular person (1 of the 3 "persons" of the Trinity), let me present you with what the Bible says.

    ONE SUBSTANCE, when applied to the holy spirit in comparison to Jehovah and Jesus Christ is false. "One substance," according to Article I of the Catholic faith, relies upon the holy ghost or holy spirit being a person. The scriptures make it clear that the holy spirit is not a person. It is a THING. That is, it is Jehovah's active force—an extension of his power—that he uses to get things done. For instance, Acts 2:1 and 4 says regarding a large group of Jesus' disciples:


    "{1} Now while the day of the festival of Pentecost was in progress they were all together at the same place. {4} and they ALL became filled with holy spirit and started to speak with different tongues, just as the spirit was granting them to make utterance." (Acts 2:1,4)


    At Acts 2:17, further evidence is given that the holy spirit or holy ghost is not a person. Notice the words I put in all caps during the quotation:


    " 'And in the last days,' God says, 'I shall POUR out some of my spirit upon every sort of flesh, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy and your young men will see visions and your old men will dream dreams.' "
    (Acts 2:17 -- New World Translation)

    "And it shall be in the last days, saith God, I will POUR out of My Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;"
    (Acts 2:17 -- Young's Literal Translation)



    Now, keep in mind that God's holy spirit/holy ghost is supposed to be the third "person" of the Trinity. So tell me this: When did you ever hear of a person being described with language like the above in which part of the person is POURED into many other people simultaneously and in which the person is distributed among many people at the same time so that they all become "FILLED" with the person?

    Another thing: Is God's holy spirit still one "person" after it's split up into dozens of people simultaneously--as happened at Pentecost?
     
  20. Alter2Ego

    Alter2Ego Member Past Donor

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    ALTER2EGO -to- ELIJAH:
    Since you say the holy spirit is co-equal aka has the same power as Jehovah (and also co-equal with Jesus who is supposedly the third person in the Trinity), let me ask you a few questions.

    QUESTION #1: Why is it that the Father, Jehovah, is the only one always in control of the holy spirit? Give me your thoughts on that.


    Shortly before he was put to death, Jesus told his apostles when he returned to heaven he would ask the Father to do the following.


    "But the helper, the holy spirit, which THE FATHER WILL SEND in my name, that one will teach you all things and bring back to your minds all the things I told you." (John 14:26)

    QUESTION #2: According to John 14:26, who would be sending the holy spirit?


    QUESTION #3: If Jesus is co-equal/as powerful as the Father and if Jesus and Jehovah were the same god within a "Godhead," why would Jesus have to ask the Father to send holy spirit? Wouldn't Jesus have had equal control over the holy spirit and be able to send it himself once he made it back to heaven?


    QUESTION #4: If the holy spirit/holy ghost is as powerful as Jehovah, why is it constantly being controlled by Jehovah?


    At a minimum, the three of them would take turns controlling each other. Instead, throughout the scriptures, Jehovah is the only person in control of the holy spirit, and Jehovah is always issuing orders to Jesus Christ who is supposedly equal to Jehovah. At no time does the holy spirit or Jesus Christ issue instructions to Jehovah. Give me your thoughts on that.
     
  21. elijah

    elijah New Member

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    So your true question is: Is God Omnipresent? You tell me, Is God Omnipresent?
     
  22. elijah

    elijah New Member

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    If the scriptures say you lied to the Holy Spirit, and then You lied to God, all in the same instance, then it makes sense that you lied to God the Holy Spirit
     
  23. Marlowe

    Marlowe New Member

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    I'm NOT confused - from childhood at schools , I was taught/trained to read the bible . I know +fully understood what I've read. I now use KJV + ERV bibles merely for reference. I do not believe it to be historical record nore the word of a god or god inspired. Its not important in my life.


    Nevermind what shape you think I'm in. From what you've said above , indicates that you're closedminded + far too absorbed in your own opinions to consider anyone else', so no point of carrying on a discussion . I leave it to yr god (or shrink ) to help you sort out your apparent swollen head / conceit - egocentricity. (wink)

    tatty-byeeeee.
     
  24. septimine

    septimine New Member

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    Can't you read. In the first part, Peter says the pair lied to the Holy Spirit, in the second, part he says that they lied to God, thus the verse clearly states that the Holy Spirit is God. It could not be more plain if they came up and slapped you with a fish.
     
  25. elijah

    elijah New Member

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    We're saying the same thing The Holy Spirit is God. I agree, we just said it 2 different ways. you said "The Holy Spirit is God", and I said "God the Holy Spirit". Do you agree the Holy Spirit is God? And do you believe God is Omnipresent?
     

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