Where Did the Trinity Teaching Come From?

As I said, most people cannot understand nor accept what I just said, and they contest it with all manner of questions and challenges "like the one you addressed to me in your final sentence" and like the one you just sent. "He who has ears to hear, let him hear." And most people don't have ears to hear. Actually, I didn't equate myself with God. It just sounded that way to your ears of flesh.

 

Well, actually, it's my eyes. We're writing each other. But, I suppose your point stands well enough. As contingent beings, none of us knows anything necessarily.

 

Kode:

I did not ask for your personal philosophy, such as you are giving me above. I gave you a direct question (posted in my red within my previous text). My direct question IS based entirely upon scripture at Matthew 28:18, and it requires a simple "YES" or "NO" answer.

As soon as you can give me a definition--from a credible English dictionary--where it indicates "authority given" is not the same as "permission given," you will have made a point. Telling me your personal philosophy has scored you no points.

Alter2Ego

 

More than three months have passed since I ask Kobe to explain why "authority given" is not the same as "permission given," and still no response. Now, why doesn't that surprise me?

Jesus Christ (the Son) who is supposedly in a Trinity with Jehovah (the Father), made it clear that he only acts when he receives authority or permission from his heavenly Father--indicating they are not the same god, as Trinitarians claim.


Alter2Ego

 

If the Jesus character is not equal to the God character why does he say that his commandments are equal to the God's commandments?

 

It's really not that difficult to understand. Jesus said "I and the Father are One." The Father is the authority. Jesus is the image God uses to represent Himself to us (the only begotten Son) and the Holy Spirit is the Power He makes available to those that sincerely seek Him. Jesus refers to the Father to demonstrate the "relationship" we are to have with Him. Jesus is our example of how flesh is to relate to the unseen God. Of course those that choose to mock will right off what I just said. The word "trinitarian" of course is not found in the Bible, but the precept is most definitely there.
This passage I feel adequately describes the Peron of Jesus:

In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death-
even death on a cross!

 

yabberefugee:

You are cherry picking words and ignoring context when you quote Jesus' words in which he said: "I and the Father are one" (taken from John 10:30).

The context makes it abundantly clear that Jesus was not saying he and Jehovah are a single god. Below are three verses from the exact same book of John--part of the context to John 10:30--which you chose to ignore:

"{1} Jesus spoke these things and, raising his eyes to heaven, he said: 'Father, the hour has come; glorify your son, that your son may glorify you. {20} I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word; {21} in order that THEY MAY ALL be ONE, just as you, Father, are in UNION with me and I am in UNION with you, that they also may be in UNION with us, in order the world may believe that you sent me forth. {22} Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, "in order that they may be one JUST AS WE ARE ONE." (John 17:1, 20-22)

QUESTION #1 TO YABBEREFUGEE: Based upon the context, are we to expect that all of Jesus disciples would become a single human being? YES or NO?

QUESTION #2 TO YABBEREFUGEE: Based upon the context, is Jesus talking about unity of purpose among all of his disciples? YES or NO?

QUESTION #3 TO YABBEREFUGEE: Based upon the context, is Jesus talking about unity of purpose between himself and Jehovah the Father at John 10:30? YES or NO?

 

#1 No. They are to be unified as one in the Holy Spirit.
#2 In the context of #1.....Yes
#3 Jesus is talking about not only the "unity of purpose" but Jesus was with the Father from the beginning. John 1:1. Jesus is the Word, the very expression of God to us in human form.
Genesis 1:1 ....God created..... and the Spirit of God hovered above the waters. One God-two functions. Jesus is the "only begotten Son of God". In other words, he is the Only one that came from God Himself. It is foretold throughout the O.T. pertaining to Messiah

1 John5:5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

It is not my job to convince you. It won't be done through your intellect. It is a gift from God. There are many that want to parse words rather than rely on what they are shown in the spirit. "Not by power, not by might, but by my spirit says the Lord". Wisdom of the world is but foolishness to God.

This is why I shared out of Philippians 2 prior. It describes quite adequately the mission of Christ and who He is. It foretells that we should desire to be like Him. Not to be Him. We are to be one in spirit.

 

Where the "trinity" teaching came from is very easy to explain. In short, it came from the bible.
The God of the bible is one. There is only one true God in the bible. However, when the God of the bible acts, the bible always attributes the intent to the Father, the affect to the Holy Spirit and the effect to the Son. The only times that the bible ever makes a distinction between them is when God acts, and it is always in the economy I outlined above. One can say that Jesus is effectively God. The Holy Spirit is affectively God, and the Father is, for all intents and purposes, God.

God the Father, God the Holy Spirit and God the Son each have their own individual intellects, emotions and wills, that's what makes them individual persons. However, their individual intellects, emotions and wills are infinitely identical, that's what makes them one.

 

yabberefugee:

You admit at Question 1 that the disciples of Jesus would not literally become a single human being simply because Jesus prayed and asked Jehovah at John 17:21 that his disciples "may all be one."

Jesus was talking about unity of purpose. He was praying to Jehovah the Father that his dozens of disciples would be united in purpose--just as he (Jesus) and Jehovah are united in purpose. Jesus drove that point home when he said at John 17:22 regarding his disciples: "in order that they may be one JUST AS WE ARE ONE." So when Jesus said at John 10:30 "The Father and I are one," the context at John 17:20-22 indicates he was speaking about unity of purpose.

Your insistence in your answer to Question 3, that John 1:1 indicates "Jesus is the Word, the very expression of God to us in human form" is not supported by scripture. In fact, John 1:1 actually debunks Christendom's idea of a 3-in-1 god aka Trinity.

Alter2Ego

 

Yabberefugee:

Genesis 1:1 says nothing about 3 gods in 1. It clearly says “the Spirit of God,” indicating that the spirit is something that belongs to Jehovah, as opposed to the holy spirit being a person—as Trinitarians claim.

Your mentioning of Jesus as the “only begotten Son of God” debunks the Trinitarian claim that Jesus (the Son) is co-eternal with Jehovah (the Father). According to the Trinity dogma, the Father, the Son, and the holy spirit have always existed together. Throughout the New Testament/Greek Scriptures, Jesus is referred to as the "begotten" son of God.

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:16 -- New American Standard Bible)

The word “begotten” refers to someone that was created:

DEFINITION OF "BEGOTTEN": "Begotten means something created something else or someone fathered a child."
http://www.yourdictionary.com/begotten

Jesus being the “only begotten Son of God”, as you admitted in your above response, indicates he is a created being; therefore, he could not possibly have existed with Jehovah the Father at all times--as claimed in Christendom's Trinity.

Alter2Ego

 

I don't need to answer your questions because you answer them for yourself.
It would be interesting to know how you "explain away" Philippians 2:5-11. Prior to Christ, humans had a very difficult time relating to a Holy God. They could not visualize what a relationship could be with the Creator of all things. Now came the Messiah.....God in human form. He took on our weaknesses to show us how it is done. To those that believe He gave the right to cry "Abba" Father. Yes, we can call Him "Daddy". That is the relationship we can now have because of Jesus.
Scripture state Jesus is the ONLY begotten son of God (John 3:16) He is the only human form that will ever come OUT of God. So you deny that? When scripture say "I and the father are ONE, that can means both one purpose and one Being. We can of course be of one purpose and separate beings. The disciples and you and I are created beings. He made us. We did not come out of Him as the Only begotten Son of God. If you deny Jesus is the Christ, you have no part in Him.

 

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance.

For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit. But the godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is all one, the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal.

Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three eternals, but one Eternal.

As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated, but one Uncreated, and one Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Spirit Almighty. And yet they are not three almighties, but one Almighty.

So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. And yet they are not three gods, but one God.

So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord. And yet not three lords, but one Lord.

For as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge each Person by Himself to be both God and Lord, so we are also forbidden by the catholic religion to say that there are three gods or three lords.

The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father, neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

So there is one Father, not three fathers; one Son, not three sons; one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.

And in the Trinity none is before or after another; none is greater or less than another, but all three Persons are co-eternal together and co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

He therefore that will be saved must think thus of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man; God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of the substance of his mother, born in the world; perfect God and perfect man, of a rational soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching His godhead; and inferior to the Father, as touching His manhood; who, although He is God and man, yet he is not two, but one Christ; one, not by conversion of the godhead into flesh but by taking of the manhood into God; one altogether; not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person. For as the rational soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ; who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, He sits at the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence He will come to judge the quick and the dead. At His coming all men will rise again with their bodies and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved.

You have the free will to accept this, or not.

 

I'm not going to attack your belief system but rather explain to you the Greek word monogenes from which "begotten" derives translates "one and only" or "unique". We
were created but we did not come out of God. For example....I have three begotten sons. They are unique because they came out of me, (and of course their mother).

Can I suppose you deny the virgin birth as well? Be honest. What other parts of John do you have a problem with?

 

I am not Catholic, but I am a believer and you are right on in this precept of those that follow Christ!

 

The OP claims the doctrine of the Holy Trinity is Roman Catholic. The Church in the earliest centuries was the Christian faith [holy catholic and apostolic]. There are very few Christian denominations that reject the doctrine of the holy Trinity and most confess the ancient creeds [apostolic/ nicene/ athanasian].

 

yabberefugee:

As soon as you can talk your way around the word "begotten," you will have made a point. Regurgitating the same Trinitarian nonsense, as you are doing above, does not change the fact that scripture throughout the New Testament/Greek Scriptures repeatedly refers to Jesus Christ (the Son) as begotten. By definition, someone who was "begotten" is automatically a created being. I gave you the definition from dictionary.com, repeated below.

DEFINITION OF "BEGOTTEN": "Begotten means something created something else or someone fathered a child."
http://www.yourdictionary.com/begotten

Here is another definition of the word "begotten" from Merriam-Webster Dictionary.

"Definition of begotten (Entry 2 of 2)

: brought into existence by or as if by a parent"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/begotten

Merriam-Webster clearly says someone that was begotten was "brought into existence" by a parent. Simply put, Jesus Christ, the son, is a created being. Deal with that.

As for your ridiculous claim that Philippians 2:5-11 proves Trinity. The CONTEXT to those verses clearly state that Jesus IS NOT equal to God (Jehovah the Father). Mind you, many of the Trinitarian Bibles made a point of mistranslating certain words to make it appear Jesus is also Almighty God and that they are equal, while some of the Trinitarian Bibles used correct translation. Below are a couple examples of the correct translation from several Trinitarian Bibles:

"{5} Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus: {6} who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God a thing to be grasped," (Philippians 2:6 -- New Heart English Bible)

"{5} Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus: {6} Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider to be equal with God something to be grasped," (Philippians 2:6 -- Berean Literal Bible)

"{5} Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, {6} who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped," (Philippians 2:5-6 -- New American Standard Bible)

"{5} Have this in your mind, which was also in Christ Jesus, {6} who, existing in the form of God, didn't consider equality with God a thing to be grasped," (Philippians 2:5-6 -- World English Bible)

"{5} Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, {6} who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped," (Philippians 2:5-6 -- English Standard Version)


I will continue this response in a different post as this one is getting too long.

Alter2Ego

 

yabberefugee:

Notice that the Bibles above -- although they are considered Trinitarian Bibles -- correctly stated that Jesus knew he could never be equal to God (Jehovah the Father). But many of the other Trinitarian Bibles twisted the above words, to make it appear that scripture says Jesus is equal to God. However, the context within the very next three verses (verses 7, 8, and 9) from those very same Bibles -- contradicted the attempt by Trinitarian Bible translators at twisting scripture. Below are examples from a popular Trinitarian Bible. I will put a different color on each set of Trinity debunking group of words.

"{5} Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: {6} Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: {7} But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: {8} And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. {9} Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: {10} That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; {11} And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (Philippians 2:5-11 -- King James Bible)

Notice that verse 6 makes it seem that Jesus "thought it not robbery" or thought it was okay to be equal to God. Notice the debunking that occurs in the colorized group of words, which I will address verse by verse. The debunking words will appear in matching color.

VERSES 7 & 8: Those verses inform the reader that Jesus became a man ("was made in the likeness of men" and was "found in fashion as a man").

DEBUNK #1 -- Scripture says God is not a man. Jesus is repeatedly referred to as "Son of man" throughout the NT.

"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?" (Numbers 23:19 -- King James Bible)


VERSE 8: -- Scripture says God cannot die and that no human eye can ever see Him.

DEBUNK #2 -- The Bible tells us at Philippeans 2:8 that Jesus "became obedient unto death" and indicates he was seen by other people, to the point they were able to kill him. SCRIPTURE SAYS GOD CANNOT DIE.

"{15} For at just the right time Christ will be revealed from heaven by the blessed and only almighty God, the King of all kings and Lord of all lords.
{16} He alone can never die, and he lives in light so brilliant that no human can approach him. No human eye has ever seen him, nor ever will. All honor and power to him forever! Amen." (1 Timothy 6:15-16 -- New Living Translation)

Verse 9: -- Scripture says "God (Jehovah) exalted him (Jesus)"

DEBUNK #3 -- By default, the one doing the exalting is automatically superior to the one who has been exalted. Jesus himself stated that the Father (Jehovah) is greater than he, thereby confirming that he and the Father/Jehovah are not co-equal, as the Trinity dogma claims.

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." (John 14:28 -- New International Version-NIV)

You, like all Trinitarians, have the bad habit of cherry-picking words that appear to say what you wish for--while you make a point of ignoring context (surrounding words, verses, and chapters).


Alter2Ego

 

I have two questions for you:

Jehovah's Witnesses say that Jesus Christ was Michael the Archangel.

Where does the Bible say that?

Where does it say that Michael was in reality Jesus?

The usual JW tendency will be to fillibuster and talk about everything but the question but just give me the chapter and verse.

 

Very very wordy. Jesus is the Christ. You are not the Christ and neither am I. You have to deal with it. You could not die so that the world would be saved from sin and neither could I. Either you have faith or you don't. It is a gift from God.

 

You are right Carlos!

 

The doctrine of the Trinity is overwhelmingly affirmed by Christians. Only these groups reject the doctrine:

"Modern nontrinitarian groups or denominations include Christadelphians, Christian Scientists, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Dawn Bible Students, Iglesia ni Cristo, Jehovah's Witnesses, Living Church of God, Oneness Pentecostals, the Seventh Day Church of God, Unitarian Universalist Christians, United Church of God, The Shepherd's Chapel, and Spiritism." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

Not that debating the doctrine is wrong. Fascinating discussion.

 

Those groups you mentioned are viewed as cultism by the vast majority of Believers.

 

carlosofcali:

The "doctrine of the Trinity is overwhelmingly" debunked by scripture found God's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible. So what point are you attempting to make? That there is safety in numbers because most supposed Christians accept the false Trinity doctrine? Do tell.

Alter2Ego

 

yabberefugee:

Something tells me that you do not realize that all religions are defined as cults--including those that believe in the Christendom's 3-in-1 god.

Alter2Ego