Where Did the Trinity Teaching Come From?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Alter2Ego, May 11, 2012.

  1. Alter2Ego

    Alter2Ego Active Member Past Donor

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    it's just me:

    That is correct. Jesus Christ, according to scriptural context, is indeed the Archangel Michael.

    Alter2Ego
     
  2. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    The idea of the Trinity is found as early as Genesis, where God said, "Let US make man in OUR image."
     
  3. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Ok then. I wonder how many of those traditions have experienced the biblically-identified transitions of consciousness from the awareness of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, through the direct, immediate experience of "Christ in me", to finally resting in-and-as one with God or as "I AM".

    Most religionists that you mentioned either have no idea what I've just said, or they denounce it as "heresy". Yet it is hidden in the words of the bible. And the only way to understand the Trinity or "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" is to transit through the experiences to higher and higher consciousness. Hence the Trinity is a reality that, although many religionists speak confidently of it, very, very few ever understand it because they have never experienced it. Written words cannot convey it like the experience does. That is what us learned from the few who have experienced it.
     
  4. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    That is not referring to the Trinity. If you had ever experienced the process of the Trinity, you would know your view of that passage to be impossible.
     
  5. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    believe as you wish Romans 1
     
  6. it's just me

    it's just me Well-Known Member

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    And as usual, no proof, no context. No sale.
     
  7. Matt84

    Matt84 Well-Known Member

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    Deuteronomy 24:16 King James Version (KJV)
    16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2019
  8. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    yes and there are none without sin.
     
  9. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It is interesting that many Christians - be it Orthodox, Catholic or Protestant do not know that the Trinity means that Jesus was God. No No No many will say - He was God's Son. This of course is the contradiction of the Trinity - that Jesus was both God - and the Son of God.

    The debate over the nature of Christs divinity had been raging for 300 years prior to the council of Nicene - and it continued to rage for centuries after - until the side that favored the Trinity killed off enough people that the message - "Believe this or Die" finally succeeded. The winner gets to write the history.

    Constantine insisted that one word be inserted into the statement of faith "Homoousios" - One substance - one Essence. To the Greeks there were only two kinds of substances - that which plants, humans and everything else is made of - and that which God is made of. With one word Constantine turned Jesus into God - God the Father - The Most High.

    It wasn't until around 200 AD that what we know as the modern Trinity Doctrine was even mentioned - by a fellow known as Tertullian. The Church initially declared this idea heretical. It did however solve some major problems so over time more folks took a liking to it.

    The interesting thing is that none of the early Church Fathers believed that Jesus was "God the Father". There were many different ideas but most if not all believed that Jesus was subordinate to the Father. The disciples did not believe Jesus was God the Father - and certainly Jesus did not believe this.

    Someone claimed in a post that John somehow supports this Doctrine but this is false - a flawed understanding based on a bad modern translation of the term "Logos" is why many make this mistake. Logos can mean "word" but in a religious context the term means the emissary between man and God. Jesus was then "the Logos" who spoke Gods word through the holy spirit.

    The author of John was trying to make Christianity more appealing by using terms that the Greek speaking people were familiar with. The idea that this term meant Jesus was God - is preposterous nonsense.
     
    Matt84 likes this.
  10. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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  11. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Most bible study efforts are bible studies because the people involved have never experienced the spiritual events I refer to. All they have is the words they find in the bible and their human, "natural man" interpretation of those words. Hence they would be and are unable to comprehend what I said on this so far. And with the further explanation and elaboration, only those who have "an ear to hear" will grasp it even then, and they are very few and not usually found in churches and certainly not in bible study groups.
     
  12. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    What spiritual events would that be?
     
  13. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    John 10:30 "I and my Father are one."

    John 17:21-23 - "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."
    22 "And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:"
    23 "I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me."

    Hebrews 1:8 - "But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom."

    Colossians 2:9 - "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form"

    This argument has its basis in human "natural man" understanding versus a spiritual understanding. This has always been the case starting right from the very beginning. YOU are not God, but God is YOU. And this was true of the young Jesus. But once you have "overcome the world" and eliminated the natural man in you and then "Realized" the Ultimate Truth of your own Being as Jesus did, that distinction ends and the You are One in every respect. Until then you believe you are your body and so you cannot fulfill the hope expressed by Jesus in the bible which says "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us".

    And this argument is further complicated by the failure to grasp the difference between Jesus and Christ. Religionists think "Christ" is another name for Jesus.

    The word "Logos" at the time was not understood to mean what you say.

    History of the term ‘Word’ or ‘Logos’:

    Philo and Neo-Platonist Jews in Alexandria were teaching of the fatherly character of Yahweh and the only begotten sonship of the Greek "Logos", or the "Word" when Jesus was a young child. Philo was a contemporary of Jesus, but he never mentioned his name. Many Oriental scholars and higher critics of the New Testament say that the writer of the Gospel of John must have been a follower of Philo, because in this gospel alone Jesus Christ is identified with the Greek Logos, which was explained by Philo as the only begotten son of the Almighty Heavenly Father when Jesus was just a child.

    Philo wrote:
    ..."Every man in regard of his intellect is connected with Logos, being an impression of, or a fragment or emanation of that blessed nature..."
    (Philo; On Creation LI (146))

    Philo gave a very detailed description to the Word (Logos). To Philo the Word was the creator:
    "As therefore the city, when previously shadowed out in the mind of architectural skill had no external place, but was stamped solely in the mind of the workman, so in the same manner neither can the world which existed in ideas have had any other local position except the Logos which made them..."
    (Philo; On Creation V (20))

    Philo taught that the Word (Logos) was the shadow of God and that man was made in the image of the Word (Logos):
    "...But the shadow of God is his Word, which he used like an instrument when he was making the world."
    (Philo; Allegorical Interpretation III XXXI (96))

    "...For God does not seem to have availed himself of any other animal existing in creation as his model in the formation of man; but to have been guided, as I have said before, by his own Word alone..."
    (Philo; On Creation XLVIII (139))


    Most astonishingly, Philo identifies the Word of God as God's "first-born son!":
    "...For God, like a shepherd and king, governs (as if they were a flock of sheep) the earth, and the water, and the fire, and the air and all the plants, and living creatures that are in them, whether mortal or divine; and he regulates the nature of the heaven, and the periodical revolutions of the sun and moon, and the variations and harmonious movements of the other stars, ruling them according to law and justice; appointing as their immediate superintendent, his own right Word [Logos], his first-born son, who is to receive the charge of this sacred company, as the lieutenant of the great king;..."
    (Philo; On Husbandry XII (45))

    --written when Jesus was young and with no evidence that Philo knew Jesus or knew anything about him.
     
  14. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    I refer to the direct, immediate experience of Christ-in-me, Christ-as-me, and "I go to the Father", "I and my Father are one", and "I AM". I refer not to knowing, but to Knowing. I refer to Being.

    It is also possible to comprehend this process if a person has "ears to hear". And that implies spiritual insight due to a spiritual awareness that is relatively uncommon as it normally overwhelmed by "carnal mind" of "the natural man". And many of the most dedicated "believers" and "religious" people remain a captive of the carnal mind. ("Carnal mind" does not refer to sexual interests, but to the thinking and consciousness of a person who believes they are their body and that spiritual truth is "logical" and can be studied from a book to be understood by their reasoning mind. The carnal mind is a reasoning mind.)
     
  15. Thought Criminal

    Thought Criminal Well-Known Member Donor

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    I was a big Pogo fan, then I graduated to MAD magazine, then degenerated to Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers, Trots and Bonnie, Zippy, and others that I don't remember.

    MAD was definitely a rite of passage.
     
  16. Alter2Ego

    Alter2Ego Active Member Past Donor

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    Paul7:

    There were millions of angels in existence BEFORE humans were created? Clearly, you are ignoring the fact that Jehovah God was speaking to one of them when he used the pronouns US and OUR at Genesis 1:26.

    Alter2Ego
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2019
  17. Alter2Ego

    Alter2Ego Active Member Past Donor

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    it's just me:

    It requires humility and study of the scriptures for one to understand the reality that the Archangel Michael is also Jesus Christ.

    You clearly have not bothered to study the scriptures. A spiritual babe will never understand the deeper things within scripture, as Jehovah's inspired word clearly states:

    "{1} So, brothers, I was not able to speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to fleshly men, as to infants in the Christ. {2} I fed you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet strong enough. In fact, neither are you strong enough now," (1 Corinthians 3:1-2)

    At this point in time, you are still on spiritual "milk," based upon what you have posted thus far. You are not strong spiritually due to your failure to study scripture; therefore, if I were to direct you to verses that indicate Jesus Christ and the Archangel Michael are one and the same, you would start arguing against the scriptural evidence due to your lack of spiritual knowledge and your lack of humility.

    Alter2Ego
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2019
  18. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    There were? Is it a "fact"? Or do you mean these are your beliefs? If "there were" and it's a "fact" then you could prove both. But there is no proof. Hence, it's your belief. Right?
     
  19. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    So you think you can understand spiritual truths by studying and reasoning with your mind. You are among the majority. The majority, however, trusts the carnal mind of the natural man.
     
  20. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    While what you are saying is mostly correct in many ways - The idea that the Author of John labeling Jesus as "the Logos" was intended to turn Jesus into God - is wrong.

    You are also incorrect in claiming that the Greeks did not view the concept of the Logos as an emissary between man and God.

    https://www.britannica.com/topic/logos

    So while you are correct in association of the term Logos with a connection to the Cosmos and creation - "ordering it and giving it form and meaning" - your understanding of the term is woefully lacking.

    You are 100% incorrect with respect to your claim that the Logos was not viewed as an emissary or conduit between man and God - that through this there was an ability to connect with the divine. (and frankly you should know better than to come straight out and claim
    And this argument is further complicated by the failure to grasp the difference between Jesus and Christ. Religionists think "Christ" is another name for Jesus. The word "Logos" at the time was not understood to mean what you say." It is not that you were particularly nasty but, this is not our first rodeo and you know that I do not make claims out my backside just for the heck of speaking - so have some respect - or at least temperance as that is what I give to you.)
    "
    Understanding this is critical to understanding what the Author of John was trying to say.

    Why you quote from Paul in a discussion of John - I have no idea -although your understanding of those passages is also flawed if you think they support the modern Trinity doctrine. . I will restrict my comments to John.

    The purpose of Jesus - as stated by Jesus was what ? I am the truth - the way, the light. It is through Jesus that we have access to the mind of God. The words of Jesus were then the words of God. Jesus was the word of God and in this respect Jesus was one with God.

    As Jesus states in 17: 21-23 - "that they also may be one in us". While those that accept the word of God into their hearts - in this way become one with God - as Jesus is one with God - this does not mean that we are God. Yes we can say that a spark from the Godhead resides within us - but this does not mean that we are that Godhead - which is what the Trinity doctrine suggests with respect to Jesus.

    At minimum the above interpretation is plausible - and it is completely consistent with the logos concept - just on the basis of these passages.

    When you look at the overall context - it is the only reasonable interpretation - unless one thinks that Jesus was a lunatic. What you fail to do is look at all the passages where Jesus refers to "The Father" as an entity other than himself. Examples that are far more clear and less ambiguous than the passages from John - passages that could - in another context - have an alternate meaning.

    For example - when Jesus is praying to God he says "Take this cup from my hand" - wanting not to have to go through with the plan. .. Not Jesus's plan - but God's plan. It is absurd then to claim that Jesus considers himself to be God - why would Jesus have to ask himself for permission. Jesus then says "Yet not as I will, but as you will.”- same as in the Lord's Prayer. God is depicted as someone other than Jesus.

    When Jesus is on the cross his last words are "My God, My God why have you forsaken me". According to the Trinity doctrine that was God hang there on the Cross. Did God then forget who he was and start crying out to himself - as if it was not himself - in some masochistic delirium. Did the person writing this passage (two actually .. the author of Mark and the author of Matthew) actually believe that it was God hanging on the Cross - that this God went batty and started mumbling some gibberish about forsaking himself ? Of course not. The fact of the matter is that these people did not believe that Jesus was God.

    This particular passage was so disturbing to later writers that they omitted/changed/interpolated the last words of Jesus from their crucifixion accounts. That being the accounts in Luke and John. This had nothing to do with wanting violation of the Trinity Doctrine as the doctrine did not exist at that time and it is not what these authors believed. The problem is that Jesus is claiming that his God has forsaken him.

    I can go on and on with clear cut examples of Jesus referring to God as an entity other than himself but, the above examples should be more than sufficient.
     
  21. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    LOL!!!! You're argument is with Philo, -not me.

    You are understanding this with the mind of man, --not with spiritual Knowing. Hence the meaning you give it is not the intended spiritual meaning. If Jesus said "I am the way", then I am the way. If Jesus said "I am the Truth", then I am the Truth. And if he said "I am the Life" (you didn't even quote this correctly!) then I am the Life. So to Realize the Way, the Truth, and the Life, this self/consciousness/awareness must discover Me, and that means abandoning all belief in "I am my body and mind" and discovering Christ within.

    This is the belief in magic and myth. It entirely misses the spiritual.

    That is your belief of what it suggests. And your beliefs here are what you learned with your human intellect. You haven't abandoned it to discover the inner Knowing granted to each of us. You remain among the majority.
    .....
    .....
    You haven't shown any receptivity, hence you remain among the majority and I have no wish to debate this with anyone. If a person shows receptivity and needs additional explanation to which s/he may "connect", I am very capable of providing it including all the necessary clarifications and explanations of the verses you mentioned. But I do not intent to debate it with anyone. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
     
  22. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    Angels were not the Creator of the universe.
     
  23. it's just me

    it's just me Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I know, all of you arrogant JW's think you are better and smarter than anybody else. Humility? Hah!

    The fact remains that you can't show that you speak the truth from the scriptures, all you can do is talk down to people. I have asked dozens of you to prove what you say is true for over 20 years and you can't do it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2019
  24. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What a laughable piece of nonsense. You say my claim with respect to the Logos is false - quoting Philo. I then respond showing that Philo stated exactly what I had stated. You now try and turn things around by claiming I was disputing Philo - when I was agreeing with him - it is you that can't seem to figure it out.

    You then go on demonization of the messenger rant because you can't handle the fact that you were wrong ... followed by running to the play ground to stick head deep in the sandbox of denial.
     
  25. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Whatever you say.
     

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