Which WW2 battle was more instrumental in defeating Germany?

so did every other colonial country but none were a match for the Japanese...colonial troops were for the most part green troops who had never been in war, the japanese had been at war since 1937, experience matters...

we can speculate back and forth on this but I doubt they would...Germany never intended to fight a two front war with the west and russia, Hitler was not expecting to go to war with Britain so I can't believe he ever intended to go to war with the US...had Britain lost the BoB the conflict with the US would've been avoided IMO...the US hated the Soviets more than the Nazi's and didnot declare war on the USSR...for what reason would the US go to war with Nazi Germany if the war in europe was over(assuming Britain's defeat)that's a hard sell to the american people who wanted no part of a european war, not until Japan attacked did the US accept war...and Germany declaring war on the US was hollow Germany was incapable of attacking the US it was more annouce US shipping bound for europe was now fair game...

GDP does not reflect military production, Germany had a greater GDP than the Russians but the russians produced equipment in enormous numbers...and you're cherry picking 1944, I'd argue the point in history we're discussing is mid 1940 to mid 1941...and all the axis powers are not on that list nor are the occupied countries which were also involved in war production for the Axis...

austria wasn't a major european power, but yet your site leaves out Axis powers of Rumania, Bulgaria, Hungary, and others like Czechoslovakia which produced tanks for the axis...in the end if we accept that GDP is the most important factor as the link alludes to, the US did not have sufficient edge in GDP to invade europe...

unless my calculator is faulty a europe under german rule plus japan has a greater GDP than the US...

3,000,000 soviet troops were massed in the border districts,whether you believe it or not that is a fact...it was no secret barbarossa was coming the Russians were quite aware of it, that the attack caught them by surprise is the goal of every attack... it was evident to everyone in December of '41 Japan and the US were headed to war yet Pearl Harbor was caught by surprise...that's kind of the point with surprise attacks, they're a surprise...

that would be like the US losing the east coast and west coast in an invasion and the Dakotas and Minnisota are going to come to the rescue...

 

THe Japanese also greatly outnumbered their colonial advesaries.

You're entire premise about BoB is that Germany could have succesfully invaded Britain BEFORE Pearl Harbor. I'm quite skeptical of that. It would have taken Germany at least a year or more to prepare for the invasion of Britain (look at D-Day as an indicator). After landing (if they had been successful) it would have taken them a while to completely occupy Germany.

By the end of WWII the U.S. was producing more weapons than the ENTIRE world combined. The tiny countries you mentioned are insignificant in the overall numbers. Bulgaria and Romania are miniscule countries. I could also add in Austrialian, Canadian, Indian, and South African production to the U.S. mix to more than compensate for these tiny axis countries. By 1945 the "allies" were outproducing the "axis" 5 to 1. Even with Britain on the axis side the allies were significantly more capable of producing weapons. Look at these numbers and consider that Germany had a massive headstart in producing weapons and preparing for war. The U.S. didn't get onto a war footing until 1942 as it was coming out of the great depression. Despite a headstart of at least 5 years the U.S. still outproduced Germany in virtually every military production category....often by magnitudes of 2 or 3. In fact, by late 1944, the U.S. began scaling back it's production capabilties once it became clear they were going to win. Remember that the U.S. had been the world's largest economy since the 1890s.

 

Tobruk...and more pressingly, the RAF base on Malta!

 

The US forces were mostly green troops. Your point???

the US it was more annouce US shipping bound for europe was now fair game... So the supplies to Britain were of high importance. Thank you for making my point.

George Purvis
http://southernheritageadvancementpreservationeducation.com/page.php?4

 

I think Stalingrad was the beginning of the end for Germany

 

Well, Barbarossa was more of a campaign then a battle...but I would DEFINITELY say it was more instrumental...by miles.

In 1941 - Germany was still in control of her destiny. She did not have to attack the U.S.S.R..

But in 1944, she was finished. One her own the Soviets were slowly but steadily marching towards Berlin.

If America and Britian had not have cared less about the Soviets marching through Europe - they could have just sat back, kept bombing Germany and left most of the dieing to the Soviets...and then if Germany was still around in the Fall of '45, finish them off with the A bomb.

Fortunately for Europe they didn't.

 

I have a German medal from that campaign. It needs new ribbon and a pin, which was lost when the medal was ripped off of the soldiers clothing. Who can restore the medal and how would this affect the value, if any?

George Purvis
http://southernheritageadvancementpreservationeducation.com/page.php?4

 

With 1 in 10 Russians, from the entire population, dead as a result of
Germany's invasion...there is no doubt they paid a higher cost than any other
ally of the war, in holding back the invasion and eventually overwhelming Germany on the Eastern Front.

Other than Pearl Harbor, not very many American civilians died from direct
combat operations in WWII. In some Russian cities, they were fighting Germans, literally
in their kitchens and living rooms.

The British were of course bombed on home soil, and did suffer civilian casualties; but nothing on the level
of what the Soviets endured.

The Eastern Front and the incredible brutality and ferocity associated with the fighting...
can't be forgotten for any honest discussion of WWII.

 

excellent post...something so many fail to understand, unless your country has fought on it's own soil and endured an occupation you really don't know the true horrors of war...probably why Germany is such a strongly pacifist country today...and maybe why some countries (USA & Britain) are quicker to go to war than others their civilian populations have little or no living memory or concept of total war...

 

Well the Confederate states are still occupied and our history, culture names, monuments and reasons for fighting are under attack every day. My family is still recovering from loses suffered in that war. I would say any Southern person who studies history has a good idea of the meaning of total war.

George Purvis
http://southernheritageadvancementpreservationeducation.com/page.php?4

 

I imagine less than 10% of all Europeans were alive during WW2, yet alone remember it. If this claim was true I don't think they would have fought WW2 so quickly after the most devestating war in history up to that point. Most of the leaders during WW2 fought or were directly involved with WW1.

 

there was a very different morality from WW1 to WW2...in WW2 civilians became viable/acceptable military targets....

the shift toward pacifism didn't occur today or yesterday it occurred decades ago when war survivors were the overwhelming majority and they passed on their experiences and thoughts to their children, that morality has not changed since...so your percentage of living Europeans who can recall the world wars becomes irrelevant...

there is a direct living memory to pass on from the generation that took part in ww2 to the immediate generation/s that followed...americans and Brits have no living memory of occupation and total war, continental Europeans do and eastern Europeans probably more so than any other...the Brits did experience attacks on civilians with some 60-70K dead but even there they suffered fewer than the Netherlands with 240K civilians dead and Britain did not suffer the experience of a multi-year occupation...the US suffered an nearly insignificant civilian death toll in comparison (1,700?)and no significant threat to it's territory or population...the civilian population and the leadership of the US has no living memory of total war...

 

I think this so-called "pacificism" is more connected to the incredible prosperity and peace that the West has experienced in the last fifty years. When you can live with your head stuffed in television, malls, and cafes its difficult to find the motivation for war. That doesn't mean it won't come your way though.

 

U2 please stop pointing fingers and come back to the subject. The Cold war erupted immediately, and it was accompanied by a number of military confrontations starting from Korea. The US bailed out West Germany, but still there was East Germany with Red brigades and Stasa there, the latter did not enjoy prosperity. The USA was bailed out of the Great Depression by the war. The peoples of Russia do not hate Germans, - their grand and great-grandfathers fought against ideology. The USA used to stand against spreading of ideology of atheism by the USSR. The USA is loosing its compass and many cannot tell a just war from an unjust war. Bombing Libya and Yugoslavia has no justification. Germany is a member of NATO. Etc. All of these are separate topics.

 

1 out 4 including children and women perished in Germany occupied republic of Belarus. That's why Bela-Russians keep on electing the last dictator in Europe as their President so hated by the American people and Western democracies.
Bela-Russians have seen looters.

 

I don't know any historical documentation that supports my claim. 2 war games conducted by the higher command may be the only I am aware about. As usual I appeal to observed reality and basic sense of it. Archives are still closed for researches …and there are no researchers. If archives get opened I don’t think that there will be too much there. Stalin conducted protection rackets, ransom kidnappings, counterfeiting operations, robberiesand jail escapes for over 12 years. It was his profession. Do you really expect him to document everything when it is known that he did not?


There are a lot of “accounts” of participants where you have to sort lies and truth by yourself, and there is a lot of info on I-net starting from wikipedia if you can read through lies and laugh idiocy out.

The USSR was a military camp. Just a list of happenings in the USSR does not leave any space for a doubt that the USSR was preparing to take over Europe.

Just one example: as nobody knows the brain of the Red Army, Marshal Shaposhnikov nobody knows about over a million of trained ( not enlisted by professors in the Red Army) paratroopers plus paratrooper tactics/carriers vs. a few hundred in Europe with no strategy, no tactics.. This is how Stalin and Shaposhikov worked: everyone looks, nobody sees.

http://www.eddiessovietposters.com/gallery-canvas/StalinPioneerSovietAviationPoster.html
http://www.liveinternet.ru/users/gregoryh/post136128303

"By 1941 the USSR had more than 62 thousand teams PE, has over 5 million athletes. 2.6 million military specialty pilots, paratroopers, radio operators, snipers, motorcyclists, nurses were produced by Organizations of Osoaviahim. Hundreds of thousands of young people master the rules of the TRP. By the beginning of World War II amount of those who passed the standards of the TRP Stage 1 has reached 6 million…. Over 5 million earned "Voroshilov Sharpshooter" and tens of thousands were awarded the badge "Sniper.""
5 million innocent civilian Sharpshooters…
Factory workers after work hours: http://img0.liveinternet.ru/images/..._na_zanyatiyah_Osoaviahima_Ivanovo_1932_g.jpg


Add 24, 000 of tanks at least matching or far superior to 400 the US tanks and about 3000 in Europe as another example…

Why did Stalin need to build such an enormous military power when the population was often starving and living in sheds? Give me a half reasonable explanation; I need no documents from you.

One of the rules of the art of war is that nobody except a few closest to Stalin could know or see all of that. Hitler could find out about the plans through Soviet soldiers, commanders and generals, through the population all training for this war. When enemy becomes aware of your plans your have huge problems.
That’s why positioning the troops is totally different from what historians, scientists, college professors and intellectuals have proved to the world. Troops don’t march all equipped and ready. You deliver them by parts and they are not aware ( less the guts feeling expressed by everyone that it all smelled like a war) of what are they heading for. Boots are transported separately, shells are separately, maps are separately, fuels and lubricants separately. All gets assembled at the last moment, one month before D day. Accounts of participants show things participants are not aware of. As an example the Red Army commanders account that they were painfully short of maps of the territory they were fighting on. Try to close your eyes and walk. Stalin was supposed to kill those who were in charge of making maps and supplying maps. You know Stalin. But you don’t know that he awarded them with medals and promotions. The Red Army commanders had excellent maps of Europe in abundant quantities. Production of The German –Russian dictionary meant to be used by an attacking soldiers and lower rank commanders was ready to be signed into print in May 1941.Etc, etc, etc.


Troops were not only positioned for the attack (too close to the border) they also were in the process of being assembled out of parts. It was already a total war Stalin started, because only college professors and intellectuals think that a war starts when the 1st shot is fired but not when Shaposhnikov’s total and continuous mobilization starts.

Just writing down the facts I have mentioned and many other facts I have skipped is enough to demonstrate both plans of Stalin and reasons of the disaster the weak Nazi military inflicted on the Read Army in the first days/months of the war, when the USSR lost or surrendered 80% of its military potential.


to be continued

 

About 1 in 10 Germans died during the war too I believe. Almost 1 in 5 Poles.

The Soviets though had a much larger population than both so their 1 in 10 was an awful lot of people.


Another interesting statistic was that by the end of the war 90% of Soviet males who turned 18 to 21 in 1941 were dead.

 

I don’t argue speculations. The D-day often starts when it can be started. The 22nd was the longest day (light), Sunday when Soviet troops were off.., Iraq was waited until it became too hot for a normal American/Soviet… Bush ignored me sweating at the news broadcasts. If a half of Soviets troops were still positioned away from the first hours/days strike, they would have time to get ready, etc. Thus starting before the 22nd is not an advantage, but a scientific proof which as well as all other scientific proofs has no roots in reality.


“Delay” and “until winter” things as well belong to science. Please understand that the main task of teachers, scientists, college professors and intellectuals is to promote scientific atheism and thus to delay brain development of younger people starting from the moment they are born.

Facepalm:

Please, explain to me how had Reds known that January would be unusually cold and Germans would stop because of that?

End of facepalm? Yes? No? Understand the question?

The Finnish war showed how winter stopped Soviets and how the Read Army went weak in winter. All world saw how it could be beaten. What the world cannot see is that the Red army broke unbreakable defense fortifications in impossible for a human winter. Red Army commanders were training in hell when German commanders were training in beds of French prostitutes.

You do have to pull out the metheorolical data, but not only rely on personal excuses of clown Guderian making complains about “climate” (but not cold) as about the last of the 3 excuses of his PR campaign meant to promote himself to the level he has not even been close to.

Moto resources of German motors could run only so many miles. They were put on stretch by August –September by resistance and counter punches of the Red Army. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Smolensk_(1941) “Many bridges were blown up and, for the first time, the Russians were laying mines to slow down the Germans, an easy task, as the Germans were confined to the very few roads.’’ [Lol. Izverg, can you re-post the gay landing off road again?]
The delays gave the Soviets time to organize for a massive armored counter blow.” http://www.junebarbarossa.com/blog/...counteroffensive-25-august-10-september-1941/
[Lol. Izverg, can you re-post the gay landing here again, so that every one can see that counter blow did not have to be massive and armored?]

Mud (see Izverg’s post) was more of a problem for german tanks than freezing.]

to be continued

 

continued
“The mud of the rasputitsa before Moscow, November 1941 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:B...91-26,_Russland,_Pferdegespann_im_Schlamm.jpg

[It also was the same problem for Soviets. Soviets were just more skillful and stronger.
German offensive at Moscow happened not in winter as everyone in the world knows, but in autumn and T was not low. This is how atheistic propaganda works, - people look around and see no G-d, people look at Autumn and see Winter. ]

“The German divisions committed to the final assault on Moscow numbered 943,000 men, 1,500 tanks, while Soviet forces were reduced to a shadow of their former selves, with barely 500,000 men, 890 tanks.”It was not really cold in November: http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lg83lf9VYJ1qzdwigo1_400.jpg

http://zarodinu.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/zoya-dead.jpg

“On 15 November 1941, German tank armies began their offensive towards Klin, where no Soviet reserves were available. Contrary to German expectations, the encircled Soviet forces did not surrender easily [written by a clown…, encircled Soviet forces had not surrender easily at Smolensk.]

…., the fighting was fierce …, and the Wehrmacht [ obeying to the will of Soviets] had to employ 28 divisions to eliminate the surrounded Soviet armies, using forces that were needed to support the offensive towards Moscow. The remnants of the Soviet Western and Reserve Fronts were able to retreat and consolidate their lines around Mozhaisk.”[were are not eliminated]
[ When the task was acomplished, Shaposhnikov’s commanders over-manuevered Germans to pull the next one. It was not cold at all in November and both sides were fighting in the same climate. 28!!! vital for Germans Divisions were held and punched, punched, punched… while Moscow girls were digging trenches for layers of defense.

Please, tell me did Hitler factor in Moscow girls who could rip his dogs apart with bare hands and if not, then why? [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klcyPNIA698"]Putin's Army [English Subs] - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCZmQvQSLu8&feature=related"]День Победы Women Tribute - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNVuNAh4pu8"]soviet airwomen in WW2 "Night witches" - YouTube[/ame]
]

“Elsewhere, massive Soviet counterattacks had further slowed the German offensive. The 2. Armee operating to the North of Guderian's forces with the aim of trapping the Bryansk front became faced with a strong Soviet counter-attack. The Soviets supported the assault with heavy air-support [where did German air superioriy go?]

The first snow fell and quickly melted, turning roads into stretches of mud German armored groups were greatly slowed and were unable to easily maneuver, wearing down men and tanks.[26] The 4th Panzerdivision fell into an ambush set by Dmitri Leliushenko's hastily-formed 1st Guards Special Rifle Corps, including Mikhail Katukov's 4th Tank Brigade …tanks were concealed in the woods as German panzers rolled past them; as a scratch team of Soviet infantry contained their advance, Soviet armor attacked from both flanks and savaged the German Panzer IV formations.

[it is not General winter, it is it is not General mud.
It is Katukov vs Guderian. Everyone knows Guderian, but nobody knows Marshal Katucav http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:M.Katukov.jpg one of most brilliant armor commanders in history, a savage.]

Red Army had greatly slowed the Wehrmacht. When, on 10 October 1941, the Germans arrived within sight of the Mozhaisk line, they found [surprise, surprise] a well-prepared defensive setup and new, fresh Soviet forces.



The German plan initially called for an instant capture of Tula and for a pincer move around Moscow. However, the first attempt to capture the city failed, as German panzers were stopped by the 50th Army and civilian volunteers .... Guderian's army had to stop within sight of the city on 29 October 1941.[ panzers of the clown, the hero of historians, proffesors and intellectuals was stopped by civilain volunteers, savages]….the multi-layered defense reduced Soviet casualties as the Soviet 16th Army slowly retreated and constantly harassed [ killed] the German divisions ..

….a powerful counterattack by the 1st Shock Army drove Germans back across the canal…

….In response, a violent [???] Soviet counterattack was launched .. General Belov's 2nd Cavalry Corps, supported by hastily-assembled formations which included 173rd Rifle Division, 9th Tank Brigade, two separate tank battalions, and training and militia units,[50] halted the German advance near Kashira

After meeting determined resistance from the Soviet 1st Guards Motorized Rifle Division and flank counterattacks staged by the 33rd Army, the German offensive stalled and was driven back four days later in the ensuing Soviet counteroffensive.[

“December
05 Soviet forces launch a counteroffensive in the Moscow sector and start to stave the Germans off.”. Winter always helps defense. Those were Soviets, not Germans who started offensive in winter not expecting winter to be harsh

“The Axis offensive on Moscow stopped on 5th of December.[In reality the RedArmy started offensive on that day] As [clown] Guderian wrote in his journal, "the offensive on Moscow failed...We underestimated the enemy's strength, as well as his size and climate. Fortunately, I stopped my troops on 5 December, otherwise the catastrophe would be unavoidable’’

Soviet forces committed to the operation numbered only 1,100,000 men,[55] only slightly outnumbering the Wehrmacht. Nevertheless, with careful [why do intellectuals like adjectives so much? And why not skillful?] troop deployment, a ratio of two-to-one was reached at some critical points.[35] On 5 December 1941, the counteroffensive started on the Kalinin Front. After two days of little progress, Soviet armies retook Krasnaya Polyana and several other cities in the immediate vicinity of Moscow

(The Soviets were also suffering large losses from the freezing cold but nevertheless had better equipment for the cold than the Germans.)’’

Quoted has been mostly wiki

Can anybody tell me what was that better equipment that Germans couldn’t have
In unusual cold winter the Red Army pushes Germans back. Germans showed to be “seasonal” warriers. The Red Army will repeat winter distruction of Germans the next winter, at Stalingrad . Germans showed to be “paved road warriers”. Katukov went off road.Lev Dovator http://780x378-1.ikiwq.com/wmnp4jazYhp8FlqpgRYBHc.jpg was not even aware of existence of any roads..Only professors and intellectuals thinks that in war anything counts but the victory. The Red Army was stronger. It had better commanders, better soldiers. It used all weakness of Germans it could discover. Germans did not achieve their strategic objective of Barbarosssa at Moscow. They did not achieved it at Stalingrad. They never did at that war, except for a number defensive and retreating objectives. Hitler failed to take Moscow, Stalingrad, Kaukaz, Leningrad. He lost millions, he changed generals, he executed generals and soldiers, but his all strategic offensives failed. Stalin objective to take all over Europe and loot it half failed. The Red Army took Berlin.

According to science detaily given in the Darvin’s theory of evolution “The Decent of the Man” Slavs, Jews, blacks, Kazachs, Yakuts are less intelligent and less capable than Germans. That’s why in their approach to the war scientosts, historians and college professors see only intelligence of German generals and miracles of German engineering when on the side of the Red Army they see winter, cruelty, barbarianism, savages.

On the 9th of May savages around the world gather together, drink vodka , sing songs and shed tears celebrating their victory over great teachings of the most outstanding scientist of all times Darwin, over logic and reasoning:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1USP1Ks0ac&feature=related"]Victory Day Veterans March, 9th May 2010, Jerusalem, Israel - YouTube[/ame]
The President of Ukraine:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPYmOrJ1PxM"]Янукович пьет водку - YouTube[/ame]
The President of RF:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7gEkiymMVE"]Медведев выпил с ветеранами "сто грамм" за Победу - YouTube[/ame]
And another guy
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9yXERydB40"]За Победу! (Тёмная НочÑ&#338 - YouTube[/ame]

Another glass of vodka and bread on it are for those who did not come back.

 

The Australians and The Americans Were each others throats by the middle + Most of the macinary was either built in Aus or Came from our mother Britian the same with other countrys that were appart of the commonwealth!!

 

Germany lost the war strategically when it attacked the Soviet Union in June 1941. President Roosevelt was already a de facto ally of the Soviets, being a left-leaning socialist himself. On Oct 31th 1941, the US sent its first Lend Lease shipments to the Soviets. This was over a month before Germany declared war on the US. Germany was fulfilling a diplomatic duty to Japan when it declared war on the US, but the US was already seen as an enemy as for her active support of the UK.

Hitler had little choice to attack Stalin. Stalin was building a strong offensive force, but it was not ready to attack Germany until 1943. Hitler needed to attack first, but was delayed by Italy's actions in the Balkins and Greece by several weeks. Hitler still could have possibly defeated the Soviets, but he changed the strategic mission to take Moscow (and Lenningrad) by going for the oil in the south. By not taking Moscow by the start of winter 1941, he lost the war.

D-Day just hastened the defeat of Germany.

 

I would say Operation Bagration.

If you don't know what that is, look it up.

 

After Stalingrad and Kursk it was all about re-enacting Napoleon's retreat from Moscow. Field Marshall Montgomery said that the first thing to go into your note book at military college is that "You never march on Moscow". Lack of logistics and adverse weather conditions often play a bigger part than fire power.

 

Germany lost the war the moment it invaded the USSR.