Who killed J.F.K?

Discussion in 'JFK' started by DennisTate, Dec 10, 2018.

  1. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This video is really, really, really shocking!

    I heard this for the first time yesterday.... and I just had to watch this again!

     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
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  2. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I figured L.B.J. would be involved... but now
    the list is going where I could not have previously imagined!!!!

    Four names of former Presidents are mentioned here after 7 minutes in this video!!!!!

    Sometimes being involved in a hugely unethical act..... forces people to support each other in ways that they would not ordinarily.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
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  3. Alan Ford

    Alan Ford Member

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    A thought-provoking question there, Dennis Tate, but more and more evidence is dispelling the myth that the fall-guy Oswald was responsible.
     
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  4. Bob0627

    Bob0627 Well-Known Member

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    Kennedy and King Family Members and Advisors Call for Congress to Reopen Assassination Probes

    On the occasion of Martin Luther King Jr. Day, a group of over 60 prominent American citizens is calling upon Congress to reopen the investigations into the assassinations of President John F. Kennedy, Malcolm X, Martin Luther King Jr., and Senator Robert F. Kennedy. Signers of the joint statement include Isaac Newton Farris Jr., nephew of Reverend King and past president of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference; Reverend James M. Lawson Jr., a close collaborator of Reverend King; and Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and Kathleen Kennedy Townsend, children of the late senator.

    Other signatories include G. Robert Blakey, the chief counsel of the House Select Committee on Assassinations, which determined in 1979 that President Kennedy was the victim of a probable conspiracy; Dr. Robert McClelland, one of the surgeons at Parkland Memorial Hospital in Dallas who tried to save President Kennedy's life and saw clear evidence he had been struck by bullets from the front and the rear; Daniel Ellsberg, the Pentagon Papers whistleblower who served as a national security advisor to the Kennedy White House; Richard Falk, professor emeritus of international law at Princeton University and a leading global authority on human rights; Hollywood artists Alec Baldwin, Martin Sheen, Rob Reiner and Oliver Stone; political satirist Mort Sahl; and musician David Crosby.

    https://www.opednews.com/articles/K...ion_Jfk-Records-Act_Malcolm-X-190120-152.html

    A Joint Statement on the Kennedy, King and Malcolm X Assassinations and Ongoing Cover-ups:

    1. As the House Select Committee on Assassinations concluded in 1979, President John F. Kennedy was probably killed as the result of a conspiracy.

    2. In the four decades since this Congressional finding, a massive amount of evidence compiled by journalists, historians and independent researchers confirms this conclusion. This growing body of evidence strongly indicates that the conspiracy to assassinate President Kennedy was organized at high levels of the U.S. power structure, and was implemented by top elements of the U.S. national security apparatus using, among others, figures in the criminal underworld to help carry out the crime and cover-up.

    3. This stunning conclusion was also reached by the president’s own brother, Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy, who himself was assassinated in 1968 while running for president -- after telling close aides that he intended to reopen the investigation into his brother’s murder if he won the election.

    4. President Kennedy’s administration was badly fractured over his efforts to end the Cold War, including his back-channel peace feelers to the Soviet Union and Cuba and his plan to withdraw U.S. troops from Vietnam after the 1964 presidential election.

    5. President Kennedy has long been portrayed as a Cold War hawk, but this grossly inaccurate view has been strongly challenged over the years by revisionist historians and researchers, who have demonstrated that Kennedy was frequently at odds with his own generals and espionage officials. This revisionist interpretation of the Kennedy presidency is now widely embraced, even by mainstream Kennedy biographers.

    6. The official investigation into the JFK assassination immediately fell under the control of U.S. security agencies, ensuring a cover-up. The Warren Commission was dominated by former CIA director Allen Dulles and other officials with strong ties to the CIA and FBI.

    7. The corporate media, with its own myriad connections to the national security establishment, aided the cover-up with its rush to embrace the Warren Report and to scorn any journalists or researchers who raised questions about the official story.

    8. Despite the massive cover-up of the JFK assassination, polls have consistently shown that a majority of the American people believes Kennedy was the victim of a conspiracy -- leading to the deep erosion of confidence in the U.S. government and media.

    9. The CIA continues to obstruct evidence about the JFK assassination, routinely blocking legitimate Freedom of Information requests and defying the JFK Records Collection Act of 1992, preventing the release of thousands of government documents as required by the law.

    10. The JFK assassination was just one of four major political murders that traumatized American life in the 1960s and have cast a shadow over the country for decades thereafter. John F. Kennedy, Malcolm X, Martin Luther King Jr. and Robert F. Kennedy were each in his own unique way attempting to turn the United States away from war toward disarmament and peace, away from domestic violence and division toward civil amity and justice. Their killings were together a savage, concerted assault on American democracy and the tragic consequences of these assassinations still haunt our nation.



    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1P1YEAXz6q2bymZ3-rY4KgCVPrukAn5ddDbCVhJm7kDg/edit
     
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  5. Sahba*

    Sahba* Well-Known Member

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    IMHO (& sorry I'm just not invested in this enough to read all the posts here) The explosive skull & brain shot is consistent with a .224" varmint type load traveling in the vicinity of 3000fps. Obviously this would be coming from one of Eugene Stoners new 5.56mm M 16's (no .223 AR's yet, eat your heart out Di - Fi, lol).
    upload_2019-2-3_16-7-56.jpeg
    I'm 50/50 on whether the SS man pictured (he was a fleet tech or something) hung over as hell, accidentally pulled the trigger.
    Just going on the record here w/ my take on things... S
     
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  6. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    True.......
    JFK was getting people angry who would tend to hire far better workers than him.

    https://www.michaeljournal.org/articles/politics/item/abraham-lincoln-and-john-f-kennedy
     
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  7. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    From your comments I think you might find this interesting......

     
  8. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

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    It is proven he acted alone and despite your repeated claims no evidence disputes that conclusion.

    Least of all the cartoon video from the OP
     
  9. Sahba*

    Sahba* Well-Known Member

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    How do we explain the 6.5mm Carcano bullet that did all that deep penetration & bouncing around?
     
  10. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

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    Bullets routinely penetrate deep.

    No explanation needed.

    It did not bounce around
     
  11. Sahba*

    Sahba* Well-Known Member

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    the 6.5 Carcono is a big chunk of copper plated lead, designed for use in the Italian Alps - shooting across great distances & yet penetrating heavy winter clothing. It is close to being the diametric opposite of the .223 / 556 NATO that seems to be the "FRANGIBLE" bullet that penetrated JFK's scull.

    As in reference to 'bounce' & 'penetration' & I'm referring to the Carcano's penetration potential that went through both men (right side of the automobile) & the seat of the Cadillac before ending up below the pants fabric of the front passenger side.

    A former BF was into this stuff, so I know a few of the - decades long, swirling conspiracy theories, lol...
     
  12. Sahba*

    Sahba* Well-Known Member

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    The theory that makes the most sense to me is that the actual 'fatal shot' (head) was an accidental discharge by the SS service weapon in the car pictured above.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2019
  13. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

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    JFK did not ride in a Cadillac it was a Lincoln.

    You are correct about what the bullet was designed for but it was not being used under those conditions. It was a powerful bullet and the target ( JFK ) was at very close range without all the winter gear.

    It simply struck one man and then another. Which is not unusual.

    It did NOT strike the limos seats.

    None of what you describe is bouncing it is only multiple wounds which again is not unusual.

    The bullet which hit his head was a similar bullet it was not frangible. Any chunk of lead and copper will shatter if propelled with enough force and striking something dense and solid like a bone. The difference is that the second bullet struck soft tissue before striking bone which slowed it down and caused it to tumble. The third struck the skull after passing through a thin layer of skin and hair.

    BTW.223/5.56 bullets are not frangible bullets either and no such weapons were fired that day. They only one's equipped with such weapons were the Secret Service and they fired no shots.
     
  14. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

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    How does it make sense with no physical evidence or witnesses? The Secret Service accounted for all ammo with no rounds fired and no pictures of film even remotely suggest that they fired even though several are clearly recorded on film drawing their weapons
     
  15. Sahba*

    Sahba* Well-Known Member

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    I'm just going to speculate that " if " there were any ' I ' s not dotted or ' T ' s not crossed, the potential for "fudged" paperwork exists... The medical evidence / documentation process was completely scuttled by the SS, much to the MD's dismay.
     
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  16. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

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    Yes the potential for mistakes always exists and we can point out errors int he warren commission report. But errors do not by definition prove falsehood nor do they automatically compromise the conclusions.

    The medical evidence and documentation was not touched or scuttled by the Secret Service in any way and still stands.
     
  17. pol meister

    pol meister Well-Known Member

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    The Warren Commission put together a plausible case of Oswald being the lone shooter. However, being plausible and being proven are two different things, IMO. And even if it was proven that Oswald was the lone shooter, it doesn't prove that Oswald "acted" alone, without accomplices that might have set him up as the patsy.

    Mostly, I'm just interested in how many shots were fired, and what the time line was on each shot, and I've yet to find any real credibility on it, though these accounts seem to cast some doubt on the WC 3-shot lone shooter conclusion:

    * * * *

    A Secret Service agent, Paul E. Landis, Jr., wrote a statement on the shooting, dated November 30, 1963. Landis was in the follow-up car, behind the Presidential limousine, on the outside running board on the right. He indicated that the first shot "sounded like the report of high-powered rifle from behind me, over my right shoulder." (164) According to his statement, the shot he identified as number two might have come from a different direction. He said:

    I still was not certain from which direction the second shot came, but my reaction at this time was that the shot came from somewhere, towards the front, right-hand side of the road. (165)

    Another witness, S.M. Holland, since deceased, also noted signs of a shot coming from a group of trees on the knoll. Holland was standing on top of the railroad overpass above Elm Street. Testifying in a deposition to the Warren Commission on April 8, 1964, he indicated he heard four shots. After the first, he said, he saw Governor Connally turn around. (166) Then there was another report. The first two sounded as if they came from "the upper part of the street." The third was not as loud as the others. Holland said:

    There was a shot, a report. I don't know whether it was a shot. I can't say that. And a puff of smoke came out about 6 or 8 feet above the ground right out from under those trees. And at just about this location from where I was standing, you could see that puff of smoke, like someone had thrown a firecracker, or something out, and that is just about the way it sounded. It wasn't as loud as the previous reports or shots. (167)

    When counsel for the Warren Commission asked Holland if he had any doubts about the four shots, he said:

    I have no doubt about it. I have no doubt about seeing that puff of smoke come out from those trees either. (168)
     
  18. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

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    To be more precise they proved Oswald did it beyond a reasonable doubt with plenty of evidence. Evidence is what conspiracy theories lack.

    There are several problems with the witnesses you cite. One is that whenever any event has multiple witnesses some of those witnesses will disagree or remember it differently than others. As it turns out the vast majority of witnesses heard 3 and only 3 shots. Another fact is the overwhelming majority heard them coming from Oswald's nest. A few cherry picked witnesses who remember it different is really not relevant,
     
  19. pol meister

    pol meister Well-Known Member

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    So let's try another witness then, John Connally:

    Connally, riding in the middle jump seat of the President's limousine in front of the President, recalled hearing the first shot which he immediately recognized as a rifle shot. He said he immediately feared an assassination attempt and turned to his right to look back to see the President. He looked over his right shoulder but did not catch the President out of the corner of his eye so he said he began to turn back to look to his left when he felt a forceful impact to his back. He stated to the Warren Commission:

    "I immediately, when I was hit, I said, "Oh, no, no, no." And then I said, "My God, they are going to kill us all."

    He looked down and saw that his chest was covered with blood and thought he had been fatally shot. Then he heard the third and final shot, which sprayed blood and brain tissue over them.[18] Connally suffered three broken ribs, a punctured lung and a shattered wrist and had a bullet lodged in his leg. He underwent four hours of surgery after the shooting and recovered from his wounds.[19] In testimony before the Warren Commission, Connally said:

    "There were either two or three people involved, or more, in this — or someone was shooting with an automatic rifle."

    Now let's put together an approximate timeline on Conally's testimony:


    At about Z-227: A rifle shot is heard by Connally, and Kennedy raises his arms up to his neck.
    At about Z-227 to Z-280, for about 3 seconds, Connolly was in the process of turning his head to right.
    At about Z-280: Connally begins turning his head back to the left, which is the earliest time he could have been hit in his back, according to his testimony; about 3 seconds after Kennedy was hit.
    Z-313: The fatal head shot, about 2-1/2 seconds after Connally was hit in the back, and about 5 seconds after Kennedy was first hit at the throat.

    According to Connally:

    "There were either two or three people involved, or more, in this — or someone was shooting with an automatic rifle."
    So tell me this, how much credibility does the Warren Commission "single bullet" theory have if it took at least 3 seconds for it to pass from Kennedy's throat to Connally's back?
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2019
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  20. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

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    His testimony does not establish a time line.

    As with any gun shot victim his memory would not have been clear

    Once again the physical evidence trumps any witnesses and proves only one shooter
     
  21. pol meister

    pol meister Well-Known Member

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    The Zapruder film establishes the time line of the actions described by Connally, not Connally's testimony.

    The Zapruder film confirms that Connally's memory (testimony) was quite clear; showing that he did turn to the right, then to the left.

    I'm not aware of any physical evidence that proves there was only one shooter.
     
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  22. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

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    No the Zapruder film SUGGESTS the time line it does not establish it. His movements do not conflict with the evidence that Oswald shot Kennedy

    It has no sound therefore we can only approximate with a strong margin of error from the filmy or all

    Every bullet or bullet fragment recovered at the anywhere in dealey plaza on that day matched Oswalds rifle to the exclusion of any other rifle

    All expended shells found that day matched his rifle to the exclusion of any other

    All the wounds in both men and all the bullet damage to the limo originated from above and behind. NO wounds or damaged originated from the front.

    The scene was in fact searched carefully for any evidence and it all points to Oswald

    The lack of any other evidence discounts any conspiracy theory
     
  23. pol meister

    pol meister Well-Known Member

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    Deleted
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2019
  24. pol meister

    pol meister Well-Known Member

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    The Zapruder film IS the time line, to an accuracy of 1/18th of a second, from the first shot fired at around Z-200 to the last shot at around Z-326; with all shots being fired in about 7 seconds.

    Actually, there was a sound track made of the shootings, which was derived from an open mic on one of the Police motorcade escorts, something called a "dictabelt". In fact, it was the dictabelt recording that caused the House Select Committee (HSCA), in 1978, to change it's conclusion from a lone shooter to a conspiracy, concluding that a second gunman was involved. The same recording also led one analyst to believe there was as much as a 95% chance that one of the shots came from the grassy knoll.

    There is conflicting evidence in the WC report, with one analyst believing all bullet fragments recovered came from one gun, and another believing the fragments came from two guns. I'm not aware of any wound evidence that is conclusive on anything. In fact, the most inconclusive of all the evidence is the wound evidence.

    One would expect that the expended shells at the 6th floor TSBD would match Oswald's rifle, since even I don't dispute the reality that Oswald was the likely shooter from the TSBD. However, when they first reported the number of expended shells, it was two, then it changed to three.

    Any evidence is not all evidence, and all evidence doesn't point to Oswald.

    I've glanced at many of your other posts on this topic, and you seem to be very locked in on the WC report of 1964, as though it's the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. IMO, that's a pretty narrow box to be locked into.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2019
  25. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

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    The Zapruder film provides ESTIMATES of timelines not THE time line.

    We do not know exactly when the first shot was fired because there is no sound. We can only know when the last shot was fired because it was the head shot.

    There are actually many reasonable estimates of the timeline based on different interpretations of when the first shot was fired. The Warren Commission simply went with the smallest or shortest one.

    The famous dictaphone recording did in fact cause the HSCA to change its conclusion but was later debunked. The fact is no gun shots at all were picked up on the recording and in fact the only recognizable sounds were from Parkland hospital.

    Neutrino activation analysis actually proved conclusively that no fragments came from another gun.
     

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