Why do Christians and Jews become non-believers in their God?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Cougarbear, Dec 28, 2020.

  1. gabmux

    gabmux Well-Known Member Donor

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    It's not possible for anyone to attack God....
    how do you come up with such ideas?
    What book are you getting this information from?
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2021
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  2. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Again the Question. which god? Religion is all about people who need support. Most of us don't.

    Science hasn't done so bad so far. Without it you may have been dead through many deadly diseases. You wouldn't be able to post on here. You have clothing, food, heating etc. etc. etc. Your god made a world that is fighting his own creation. Earthquakes, floods, disease. Will your god stop all these if mankind turns to him. I think not. Why has he promised a different end of the age to Jews and Christians. Why has he allowed Gospel writers to pervert OT scriptures to make Jesus divine. The whole nativity stories are a joke if you care to really study them and the OT, Roman and Jewish laws of the time. They actually go against these in some cases. Why has he allowed Gospel writers to put words into Jesus mouth that as a Jew he would never have said. Had he done so he would have been deserted by his disciples and the general public. He spoke, taught and behaved as a Jew would. He was a Jewish preacher - purely and simply. Concerned with the state of hypocritic religious leaders. Like many we have today. Why is it that archaeology and history are correctly disputing much of the Bible.
    Archaeology confirming the Bible, or the Bible confirming archaeology.?. Events known to Jewish scribes were interwoven into a story written in Babylon giving the Jews an origin. Historical Novels written in poetical and picture language so loved by the Jews, and which Jesus used often.
     
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  3. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What was it you believed that went wrong?
     
  4. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Your proof?
     
  5. Cougarbear

    Cougarbear Newly Registered

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    Your response...
     
  6. JAG*

    JAG* Well-Known Member

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    The novel The Shack provides good answers for those problems up there.
    You might want to read the novel, The Shack.
    It was a New York Times Best Seller.
    Sold 20,000,000 copies.

    Here is a passage from the novel The Shack.
    I typed all this just so interested parties can get a "feel"
    for a truly great novel, The Shack.

    JAG Note:
    Some atheists and the Mack character are identical. They both
    endlessly blame God for the pain and evil in the world. Continuing
    to do that leads to a dead end.

    Now a great passage from the novel The Shack:

    Start quote.
    "I can see now, confessed Mack, that I spend most of my time
    and energy trying to acquire what I have determined to be good,
    whether it's financial security or health or retirement or whatever.
    And I spend a huge amount of energy and worry fearing what I've
    determined to be evil. Mack signed deeply.

    Such truth in that, said Sarayu {the character of the Holy Spirit} gently.

    Remember this. It allows you to play God in your independence. That is
    why a part of you prefers not to see Me. And you don't need Me at all
    to create your list of good and evil. But you do need Me if you have any
    desire at all to stop such an insane lust for independence.

    "Is there a way to fix it?", asked Mack

    You must give up your right to decide what is good and evil on your own
    terms. That is a hard pill to swallow -- choosing to live only in Me. To do
    that, you must know Me enough to trust Me and learn to rest in My
    inherent goodness.

    Sarayu {the character of the Holy Spirit} turned towards Mack, at least that
    was his impression. "Mackenzie {Mack} evil is a word We use to describe the
    absence of good, just as We use the word darkness to describe the absence of
    light or death to describe the absence of life.

    Both evil and darkness can be understood only in relation to light and good;
    they do not have any actual existence. I am light and I am good.
    I am love and there is no darkness in Me. Light and good actually exist. So,
    removing yourself from Me will plunge you into darkness. Declaring independence
    will result in evil because apart from Me, you can draw only on yourself. That is
    death because you have separated yourself from Me: Life.

    Wow! Mack exclaimed, sitting back for a moment. That really helps But I can also
    see that giving up my independent right is not going to be an easy process. It could
    mean that --- Sarayu {the character of the Holy Spirit} interrupted his sentence again.
    That in one instance, the good may be the presence of cancer or the loss of income --
    or even a life.

    "Yeah, but tell that to the person with cancer or the father whose daughter is dead", Mack
    said, a little more sarcastically than he had intended.

    "Oh Mackenzie, reassured Sarayu, Don't you think We have them in mind as well? Each of
    them was the center of another story that is untold."
    End quote
    Source:
    The Shack by William Paul Young
    Pages 137 -138

    ____________

    Give The Shack a read,'
    The Shack: Where Tragedy Confronts Eternity: William P. Young: 9780964729230: Amazon.com: Books

    Best.

    JAG
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2021
  7. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Satan is only an enemy of God in Christianity. In Judaism he is God's chosen adversary. The term adversary used means that he works for god, to test men's faith. As in the mythical argument in the book of Job. This is an argument that goes back before the book of Job was written and continues even today. Why do the righteous suffer? The Ludlul-Bel-Nimeqi is an earlier version of the same argument. The supposed temptation of Jesus in Matthew is simply in line with Judaism. As regards to the story - no-one was there, only Matthews invention.

    Jewish View
    He (Satan) is clearly subordinate to God, a member of His suite (Heb. Bene ha-elokim), who is unable to act without his permission. Nowhere is he in any sense a rival of God. The Encyclopedia Judaica The Christian claim that it was Satan who created evil is utterly fraudulent according to our Tanach: I (God) form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:7 God creates all things, not simply good things. There isn't a single verse in the entire Tanach that states that Satan ever created evil or ever disobeyed a command from God. Satan is an obedient servant of God in the Tanach who serves the role of man's accuser in God's court.
    Creation of Temptation
    God created the temptation to do evil partially to test our loyalty, and partially to improve us. That is why the word (Satan- שטן) in Hebrew literally means an adversary (Numbers 22:22) that comes to challenge us. We find this notion throughout the Book of Job, where God gives permission to the Satan to challenge the righteous Job. In fact, one of the most dramatic and powerful expressions of man’s struggle with God and his conscience involves Job and Satan. God had given Satan permission to afflict Job with all manner of hardships and misfortune. In turn, Job loses his family and possessions, and is stricken with boils and disease. As he sits in sheer agony, his close colleagues remark, “Your piety is your foolishness.” Even his wife chews him out, saying, "Are you still holding fast to your integrity? Curse God, and die." But Job tells them, "You speak as one who is despicable. Should we accept only the good from God and not also accept the evil?”(Job 2:9‑10)
    Conclusion
    It is the mission of every conscientious person to overcome temptations and do what is correct. The Torah itself (Genesis 4:7) teaches that is a mission within our grasp to fulfill. There is nothing to fear from the temptations of the Satan when one is focused on Godliness and self-improvement.
     
  8. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    There are thousands of Gods. What is the name of your favorite imaginary God?
     
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  9. Cougarbear

    Cougarbear Newly Registered

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    There's only one God and only one God you attack, the Christian-Judeo God. I'd like to see you attack the Muslim god and see what happens :roflol:
     
  10. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Donor

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    I would suggest taking a look at near death experience accounts of Christians to realize that what you now may think of as wasted years may not have been wasted at all.








    This may come as something as a surprise but Ezekiel chapter thirty seven, Revelations twenty, Romans nine, ten and eleven fit with Multiverse Theory that would be a piece of cake for our Creator.



    https://www.near-death.com/experiences/gay/christian-andreason.html#a04h

    These things could not be fully understood until these latter days before the Millennium or as the Jews term it, The Era of Moshiach.


    Jhn 16:25


    These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
     
  11. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And - even if God is Real - there is no way to know anything about this God for sure - and man made myths do not cut it.
     
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  12. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Enki - Great Scientist and creator of Humans !
     
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  13. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If you trace them all back they all stem from the ancients god's.3 so-called Abrahamic religions when Abraham never existed, when the stories in Genesis are adapted from earlier ones.Israel was never in Egypt and Palestine was ruled by Egypt anyway. There is no trace of Israel in Egypt. The fact that a settlement with Palestinian features is not surprising. Tribes were always on the move in and out of Egypt. Emphasis is given to this supposed Israeli settlement when there were other nationals who had also settled.
    The Jewish faith came into being while the Jews were in Babylon. They adopted Jahweh as their god. Having had contact with other nations - including Egypt - they adopted some of their rituals, clothing and copied some artefacts from other nations. The Ark of the Covenant was adapted from other Arks - particularly the Egyptian. The Temple had similar features to other middle east temples.

    The Jews followed their captors who practised monotheism. El worshipped by then now extinct 10 tribes. was assimilated into Jahweh with all the attributes of both.

    After exile, the Priesthood came to power under Ezekiel. This lasted until the Maccabean era when the varies contenders fell out over who should be High Priest. The Romans settled the matter by taking over and installing their chosen High Priest.

    The parts of the OT that are of use are those which contain the history from the tribal king David to the exile in Babylon. And even those have to be taken with a very large 'pinch of salt'. So much it exaggerated beyond belief. And the writings like the Psalms, Proverbs etc. contain some wisdom -whatever your religious belief.
     
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  14. Cougarbear

    Cougarbear Newly Registered

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    Ahhh... you are fooled again! Those ancient civilizations actually wrote their own fables based on what actually happened. The timeline is skewed by bogus science. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob all happened or there would have been no Israel to be captive in Babylon. And, there is plenty of evidence of Israel in Egypt.
     
  15. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Indeed the ancients wrote their own fables based in part on what happened - and the stories grew from there over time.

    Not sure what "bogus Science" you are referring to though - especially in this time period - Abraham on down. I think you may be confusing Scientific dating methods for timescales of millions of years or more - with how things are dated from less than 4000 years ago - the time of Abraham - the science for this is quite solid - but - we do not use only scientific methods for dating such as carbon14 - which is also very accurate in this range .. but - we don't need it - although when you get correlations - which we do - that much the better.

    So while for longer time periods there is some ground for debate - if you think this applies to the time period in question in the same way - someone has been lying to you .. "fooled again".com
     
  16. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There's no evidence in Egypt, in Egyptian history and even Matthew and Luke deny it with their geneaologies. They go back to Abraham and Adam. Unfortunately they omit the 11 generations that should have existed in the 400+ years. So either they got it wrong, or the Bible is wrong.
    Israel was a tribe in Palestine. Never in Egypt. Palestine was ruled by Egypt - proven history. That would mean the Hebrews would never have left Egyptian territory - even when in Palestine. History records the tribes in Palestine rising up against the Egyptians and throwing them out. The Armana Letters record Egyptians governors in Palestine pleading for help from Pharaoh. They never got it and were thrown out. The tribes probably fought among themselves for dominance and Israel won. The book of Judges would indicate this. There never were 13 Hebrew tribes- inc. Levi - but tribes remained in Palestine. That includes the Canaanite tribes. .

    Fooled? That's your opinion. I think you should study proven history.
     
  17. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It's called Historical Novel writing. That's what the Babylonian exiles did. They took known events and wove characters into them. It's been done down through millennia. Unfortunately they got things wrong in several ways if you check history and archaeology. No-one crossed the 'Red Sea'. 600,000 armed men fight an unknown (in History) tribe 600000 men between 20 and 50 gives us a total of Jewish population of 2.5 - 3.5 million. That's roughly half the size of the population of Egypt of the time. And it's not recorded?
    The supposed invasion destroyed 3 cities? But Ai was already in ruins and archaeology tells us that far more cities were left devastated at that time. It all indicates an internal uprising. The walls of Jericho fell down. Not for the first time. It is in an earthquake area after all. The last earthquake that shook Jericho and surrounding district was as late as 1926. Previous to that the 12th century CE That mighty city of Jericho - you can walk round it's ruined walls in about 15 minutes. And no-one can agree how and when it fell. The cities of the plain were known to have been destroyed and used as a background. Also in the earthquake area.

    People seem to think that people were unaware of anything that went on outside their own country. That's complete nonsense. They even knew some of the then modern Greek/Egypt science and medical advances and used them in their writings, They interacted with other nations and knew what was going on.

    And I'm going - to bed.
     

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