Why do NeoAtheists deny the practice of atheism is a religion?<<MOD WARNING>>

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Kokomojojo, Apr 25, 2019.

  1. JakeStarkey

    JakeStarkey Well-Known Member

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    No one is asking your to disprove deity.

    Believers are asking your merely to let them believe without your ignorance messing matters up.

    And you are supported by the same law against the believers doing it to you.
     
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  2. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    Oh yes I can. I am an atheist because I do not believe in the existence of God. I lack belief in deities. I disbelieve in God.

    I am an agnostic because I do not know if God does or does not exist. and I don't think anyone really can know if God does or does not exist. Its an unknowable.

    As long as I claim not to know if God does or does not exist, I remain an agnostic. As long as I do not believe in God, I remain an atheist.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2019
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  3. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    false, you cannot be an atheist and agnostic at the same time any more than you can drive left and right at the same time.

    to be agnostic you neither believe nor disbelieve there is a G/god.
    atheists disbelieve a G/god exists

    and please spare us the word games, there is a thread proving how ridiculous it is.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2019
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  4. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You have the unpleasant habit of trying to tell me (and others) what I think. Believe it or not Koko you clearly do not live in my mind, I am an Atheist as far as "God" is concerned in that these multiple human created thingys are obviously (to me) inaccurate interpretation yet I am well aware that there are many thing I do not know so I am agnostic in that respect.



    noun: agnostic; plural noun: agnostics
    1. 1.
      a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
    1. 1.
      relating to agnostics or agnosticism.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2019
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  5. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    An atheist is anyone who doesn't believe in a god. If you do not have a belief that a god exists, you are an atheist.

    Agnosticism deals with claims of knowledge. A gnostic claims to know the nature of god, an agnostic does not claim to know anything about the nature of god.

    They are not mutually exclusive. One can be an agnostic theist, a gnostic theist, an agnostic atheist, or a gnostic atheist.
     
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  6. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    Science is not a "method". It is a set of falsifiable theories.

    Wrong. You're correct that they would be arguing fallaciously, but they would actually be committing a different fallacy, the circular argument fallacy, as they would be attempting to prove their religion, but those like yourself who think their belief means that there is NO actual "supernatural" (ie, god(s), etc.) are actually the ones who are arguing from ignorance.

    Argument From Ignorance Fallacy. Absence of evidence is NOT evidence of absence.

    Here, you are correct in that I can't cause such to exist. It either exists or it doesn't. There is no way to prove or disprove said existence. It can only be accepted/rejected on a faith basis.

    You've already formed that belief. You believe that god(s) do not exist.
    You are an atheist. You also justify your belief by claiming "lack of evidence to the contrary". That commits the Argument From Ignorance Fallacy, as lack of evidence is not evidence of absence. Lack of evidence is not a proof. You need not justify your belief in any way.

    You have already done so, though...

    You have already done so on your own...

    Fallacy Fallacy. I have committed no such fallacy in my argumentation.

    I'm not telling you anything, or assuming anything. I am responding based on your very own words to me...
     
  7. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    Correct. I am not asking him to disprove the God that I believe exists, nor am I attempting to convert him away from Atheism. I am merely attempting to increase his understanding of religion and logic, and to show how his justification for his religious belief is fallacious. This works the same way for any religion. I could even fall into the fallacies I am pointing out.

    In essence, I am trying to show him that he need not justify his belief.
     
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  8. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    Nailed it! Very well said.
     
  9. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    He's responding according to what you (and others) have asserted; so am I.

    He never claimed that he did; neither have I.

    Yes, you are an Atheist. You believe that god(s) do not exist. That is what you have said right here, as you believe that god(s) are "human created thingys"...

    Yet, you have closed the door on Theism, as you have just said above that you believe that god(s) are "human created thingys", instead of choosing to accept neither belief and instead saying "idk either way"... That doesn't make you an agnostic or the paradoxical "agnostic atheist"; you are still an Atheist since you believe that god(s) do not exist.

    This particular definition supports what I am asserting in this comment, so thank you for that.
     
  10. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    No, you can't. It locks you into the following paradox...

    [1] I believe that god(s) do not exist. (ie, making a knowledge claim regarding existence)
    [2] I believe that the existence of god(s) is currently unknowable. (ie, NOT making a knowledge claim regarding existence)

    You have to choose one and completely reject the other in order to clear your paradox, as arguing a paradox is irrational.

    Correct. You are an Atheist. You believe that god(s) do not exist.

    Continuation of aforementioned irrational reasoning. You must clear your paradox.

    Whether your belief that god(s) do not exist is weak or strong, you still believe that god(s) do not exist. That makes you an Atheist. An Agnostic, on the other hand, doesn't close the door on either belief, as you have done. They simply do not know.
     
  11. Arjay51

    Arjay51 Well-Known Member

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    You? Demanding an end to word games? That is what all of your posts consist of. Period. That and your claims of logic which always fall short of their goal.
     
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  12. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    Please stopped lying.about the definition of agnosticism,
     
  13. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What is so hard for you to understand here? I do not believe in the versions of God available on Earth but leave open possibility other than that.
     
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  14. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    Ridiculous. This door is no more or less closed than any other belief. Because my beliefs change. I may not believe today, and tomorrow that door gets opened, when I hear a cleric on the radio. I can disbelieve in God, thus being an atheist, and still allow for doubt in the certainty of my position. There is nothing stagnant in any belief or lack. All of this is separate from what I know or do not know.

    Maybe your beliefs represent closed, and locked and bricked doors, but mine are not.

    We have gotten a little sloppy with our colloquial use of "I don't know' in our culture to use it as a synonym for 'I am not sure' ' 'I have doubts' but knowledge and belief are distinctly different concepts that often intersect and travel in parallel .
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2019
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  15. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    His offered definition of agnosticism is correct.
     
  16. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    Don't lie. I have already caught you doing it in your own posts.
     
  17. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    ...because they can rely on ethics.
     
  18. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    Yup, and in that case, you would change your belief over to Theism. Thus, you would then have the door closed on Atheism. I'm not saying that you can't or wouldn't ever switch beliefs; I'm saying that while you are holding one belief, your door is closed on the opposite belief (unless you are an agnostic and haven't walked through either doorway). In that case, both doorways are open, but you haven't gone through either of them.

    Yes, you might have strong faith, or you might have weaker faith. Either way, it is still faith.

    Didn't say anything was stagnant. One can change their beliefs.

    Doors are never locked, but they ARE closed unless one changes their belief.

    Belief is the acceptance of a statement as a truth. Knowledge is the acquisition of understanding/information through experience/education/etc. Like you say, they are different things which often run parallel, as we typically base our beliefs on our knowledge. It seems to me that this is what you are doing when you say you believe that god(s) do not exist. You have acquired knowledge about whatever god you are rejecting through your experiences and through reading publications about whatever god you are rejecting. So, given that knowledge, it seems to me that your belief involves and is based on knowledge.
     
  19. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I said "using scientific method".
    I don't agree. When the argument reaches me, the issue I care about is that there is no evidence. It's true that they are trying to argue what is a fundamental assumption of their belief system. But, I'm not that interested in that mistake.

    The point remains that however they choose to fix this mistake, it will still be without evidence. Thus when it reaches me it's argument from ignorance.

    And, I'm fine with them having their argument. I am not interested in fighting their religion. If they want to believe in the supernatural, that's OK.

    I'm here because not accepting the supernatural without evidence is not a religion.
    NO! I did not suggest that there is no supernatural. I said there is no evidence of a supernatural.

    You can believe there is a supernatural if you want. I'm not attacking you.
    No, I just have a hard time accepting stuff for which there is no evidence. You can't accuse me of "argument from ignorance" for that. There are many things I consider highly doubtful due to the fact that there is little or no evidence. It's not rational to start "believing" stuff for which there is no evidence.
    When you slice and dice my post and give responses this vague there's no way to respond.
     
  20. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    When discussing religion, "belief" is more than that. We use that word a lot. "I believe someone once said ...".

    In religion, "believe" has to mean "dedicate my life to this absolute truth". The Abrahamic faiths believe in a God who demands that dedication to have real meaning in one's daily activities - to be considered the singular central purpose.

    I doubt there are many atheists who are ready to dedicate their lives in that way - to have their daily lives guided by not-god.

    You can't claim that since you dedicate your life to X then I must be dedicating my life against X. It's quite possible that I'm fine with how you dedicate your life and just choose not to follow your example.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2019
  21. HockeyDad

    HockeyDad Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Why does it matter so much to those of religious faith to categorize agnostic people as having a religion? Assume that agnosticism is a religion, what then? I am unclear as to what is proven.
     
  22. yasureoktoo

    yasureoktoo Banned

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    This is a tactic used by religious people, to drag you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
     
  23. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    We generally call it Trolling.
     
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  24. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    Yup, and then I said that science is not a method. There is no holy "scientific method". Science is, simply, a set of falsifiable theories.

    I suggest looking into what the Argument From Ignorance Fallacy is and learning why you keep committing it.

    See above.

    Perfect! And I'm not here to fight your religion either.

    Continued Argument From Ignorance Fallacy. Evidence might be there, but you might just be ignorant of said evidence. And yes, it actually IS a religion. A religion is much more than just Theism. It is an initial circular argument with other arguments stemming from it. That's what you are making use of when you believe that no god(s) exist. You believe it on the basis of circular reasoning (ie, X therefore X) (ie, Argument of Faith). You fail to see how your belief was formed, and you fail to see the logically fallacious justification for your belief. You need not justify your belief that god(s) don't exist.

    I must also ask, are you using "evidence" to mean "proof"?

    ... and you are attempting to justify your belief that god(s) do not exist with the "lack of evidence" to the contrary... continued Argument From Ignorance Fallacy.

    And same to you, vice versa...

    That is precisely what the Argument From Ignorance IS, though... You are justifying your belief based on lack of evidence to the contrary. You are claiming that god(s) do not exist because there is no evidence that they do. I've been bolding every instance that you say this...

    No, what's not rational is for you to justify your religion by citing "absence of evidence to the contrary". Absence of evidence is NOT evidence of absence. Lack of evidence is NOT a proof. That is fallacious argumentation... You need not justify your Atheism.

    Yet, you still found a way to respond... Strange...
     
  25. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    I don't agree that the definition of the word "belief" changes because of religion. It means the same thing regardless of whether one is talking about religion, science, or anything else. Belief is simply "the acceptance of a statement as a truth".

    Correct.

    Maybe, maybe not... I'd argue that they do such a thing, but I don't think it's important to quibble over that as I don't find that dedication is relevant to defining what a religion is. All there needs to be is an initial circular argument, and then additional argumentation based off of that initial circular argument. That forms a religion, and shows why religion cannot be proven/disproven and why it is entirely faith based, since a circular argument IS an argument from faith.

    Just as one cannot prove that there IS a god, one also cannot prove that there ISN'T a god. Logically, god is rejected on the same exact faith basis that god is accepted on. That's why one can't logically say "I (dis)believe since there is no evidence to the contrary". It's ignorant to do so.

    I think I could argue so, using an "if, then" argument, but I don't find this quibble to be important to the bigger point I am making.

    Correct.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2019

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