Why I'm here.

Discussion in 'Member Casual Chat' started by Torus34, May 11, 2022.

  1. Torus34

    Torus34 Well-Known Member

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    Time was, I used to think that I could post on a political forum and change someone's position on this or that issue of the day. Time passed, and I was disabused of that Pollyanna-ish mindset. Folks hold to their beliefs tenaciously, even in the face of evidence which disproves them.

    These days, I'm still here. I no longer try to change anyone's mind. Rather, I attempt, gently and politely, to get people to realize that many of our issues and problems are complex and not easily solved in whole or part through simplistic, easy, cheap answers.

    How about you?
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2022
  2. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    What I have found is that my mind can be changed but not in the heat of battle. It can be changed by reading but not participating in threads. So when I post, I almost never try to make arguments that will change the other posters' minds. I am posting for the people who are on the fence and may be reading the arguments.

    I also agree 100% that most problems are complex and not solved in a few sentences. As soon as someone tries to argue that so and so is simple, that is almost always evidence that the problem only appears simple because they are uninformed. Even worse, we often find that ignorance and arrogance go hand in hand - the most dangerous combination of all.

    A great example is the energy problem and our need to end the reliance on petroleum products. Yes we do have fixes available right now. The real problem has been the cost. Either the government must force the age of petroleum to end or we drive the alternatives to be price competitive with oil. The problem is not the technology. So whenever you see someone shaking their fist at the sky because of evil big oil, stop to think that this is a free market. And THAT is why we don't have options. The problem is that until options are as cheap or cheaper than gasoline and diesel, people will continue to buy petroleum products.

    But I have probably read hundreds if not thousands of accusations about how the problem is big oil and government. And you can find a library of associated conspiracy theories. But the actual problem is the consumer. You can't even add a gas tax without people readying to burn down the WH.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2022
  3. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What are some of the topics that you attempted to discuss with people whose opinions are different than yours?

    I, too, thought that if I calmly and politely presented enough indisputable facts it might at least get those firmly holding a different mindset might at least get professionally deceived people to consider that their long held beliefs were false.

    Instead, I've only found that the less capable a person is at defending their position, the more angry and insulting they become.
    Briefly put, you know that you've won a debate when the other person resorts to slander.

    "When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser" Socrates

    Thanks,
     
  4. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

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    Usually I get the whatabouts. If someone can't deny what I said they just change the subject.

    However I disagree with Socrates to this extent: That are plenty of people far out of their depth AND arrogant to boot. There are plenty of times when the person arguing IS the problem. No amount of logic or facts would ever change their minds. All that can be said is that THEY are the problem. And frankly not everyone is capable of understand all problems. Some subjects require many years of a formal education before anyone can claim expertise.

    One of my favorite examples is when a guy who works a cash register in a liquor store argues about climate change with climate scientists. Them calling him an idiot is entirely justified. It may not be the best way to handle things but it doesn't mean they lost the argument either. And he's not an idiot for not being a climate scientist. He's being an idiot when he has the gall to argue about it with experts.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2022
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  5. AlpinLuke

    AlpinLuke Well-Known Member

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    I've been mod on a US political forum for years and I simply realized that politics is politics. Period.
    I've been a politician myself [in Italy] and I know that internet is nothing else than a battlefield.

    Politics is a market: it's not about rationality or about right or wrong ... it's about marketing.
    If something wrong makes you gain vote ... why should you renounce to it? Because it's wrong?
    Which is the nature of the judgment saying that something is "wrong"? Political? It can be wrong as well ...

    Ideological? It's the same: ideology is equal to politics.
    Ethical? Good luck: try and define ethics ...
    Religious? Great! Politics uses religion.

    Machiavelli's attitude aside, politics exists to try and make life better for all, managing the "public thing" in a better way.
    Unfortunately politics is not about this in many cases [this is a political forum: how many threads on this message board are related with daily real problems of common citizens?].
     
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  6. Seth Bullock

    Seth Bullock Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    When I give my opinions on things here, I don’t expect to have anyone say, “Oh gee! I was wrong. You are right.”

    My only thought is to perhaps plant a seed, so to speak.

    To HereWeGoAgain: I think the solutions to a lot of our problems are fairly simple, but there are roadblocks to agreeing on them or in implementing them. Usually those roadblocks are economic or, closely related, political.

    I am reminded of an old saying, and it speaks to our seeming inability to solve many of our problems.

    Things are the way they are because someone wants them that way.”

    And often, the reasons they want them that way are for selfish or purely political reasons that are not in the best interests of the country. And so fairly simple problems persist, seemingly endlessly.
     
  7. Coachac

    Coachac Well-Known Member

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    Most peoples minds are made up before they post or read a post. As to why I’m here? It’s not that often and usually just to pass(waste)time.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2022
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  8. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Pretty much same. Attempting to counter propaganda can be rewarding as well.

    But keep in mind the reader vs responder rate around here is something like 10 to 1. So just because no one is saying 'oh you're right' doesnt mean you're not changing any minds :)
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2022
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  9. James California

    James California Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    ~ It's a lazy way to relax. I look for humor. Nothing more.
    This site is fair-minded and balanced. I donate for the angry ones who need a place to vent. For them it may be their only outlet. It serves a purpose.
    :sleepy: `:rage: :blahblah: :omfg:':truce:
     
  10. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Interesting post and some parts parallel my experience. Especially the part about (most) people being unwilling to change their positions in the face of evidence that contradicts their current position.

    However, there are exceptions and they are worth enduring all the obstinate cases.

    Personally, participation on PF has led me to change/modify my position on a number of issues. One big change was a certain member helping me realize I’m a flaming socialist. I’ll be forever grateful for her straightforward education.

    When pondering the inability of others to accept reality/evidence I think it’s important to look inward and find how willing the individual in the mirror is to face reality. I’m quite convinced someone unwilling to modify their own position based on evidence has any business attempting to change another’s opinion.

    Furthermore, if I have not studied a subject in sufficient depth to uncover a multitude of details that make me question the validity of my position (even if the evidence isn’t strong enough on which to base a change of position) I don’t really have enough knowledge of the subject to merit attempts to influence others.

    Why am I here? I joined PF in 2018 because I still had an interest in participating in the political process even though that interest was already experiencing death throes. The pandemic kept me interested in PF because I felt it was my responsibility to share correct information on biology/virology/epidemiology regardless of whether people accepted it or used it to protect themselves from Covid or not. To get back to your point of resistance to accepting evidence the majority of people were not interested in evidence. But the few that were willing to accept evidence made it worth the effort and frustration. I’ve gained some friends I wouldn’t have otherwise by engaging in deeper conversations on Covid in the PF private message platform.

    Your thread is timely because I’ve been questioning why I’m here now that the pandemic is essentially over. Arguments about whether or not Biden is senile or who’s going to control Congress next year have almost zero interest to me. But there are a lot of good people here (even those I disagree with) and much to be learned so I’ll stick around…
     
  11. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    Purely for the entertainment Factor alone.

    Although there are some current events that are covered, one must view them through the lens of the bias of the one who authored them.... But that's not much different than any other source
     
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  12. Torus34

    Torus34 Well-Known Member

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    Hi, HWGA!

    We are on the same page. Thank you for your extensive chat.

    Best wishes to you and yours.
     
  13. Torus34

    Torus34 Well-Known Member

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    Hi, Grau.

    Your experience parallels mine. The topics were those current a few years ago, back in the days of the presidency of Mr. Barack Obama.

    There are folks on this forum who value winning above all else. Some of them count a 'win' if the other person withdraws from the tit-for-tat.

    Regards, stay safe 'n well.
     
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  14. Torus34

    Torus34 Well-Known Member

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    Hi, AlpinLuke.

    I'm one of those who has read Machiavelli, Marx, Hitler, Keynes and a number of names that people throw about on political forums. I've dug into ideologies, religions and a number of other areas.

    Many who post on political forums appear to have but a superficial idea of all sorts of stuff. Serious discussion with them is difficult due to their lack of background.

    Regards, stay safe 'n well.
     
  15. Torus34

    Torus34 Well-Known Member

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    Hi, modernpaladin.

    Thanks for the input. I didn't know the reader/responder ratio.

    Regards, best wishes to you and yours.
     
  16. Torus34

    Torus34 Well-Known Member

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    Hi, 557.

    Thanks for the extended response.

    It took me decades to arrive at my present position. I now am content to self-identify as a secular humanist. That puts me outside of [not above!] those on the right or left, lib or con, Dem or Rep. It's helped me to justify certain positions on certain issues.

    Regards, stay safe 'n well.
     
  17. Torus34

    Torus34 Well-Known Member

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    Hi, FatBack.

    Thanks for the reply. Nothing wrong with entertainment. I sometimes follow the twists and turns of specific politicians for the same reason. It can be a hoot!

    Regards, best wishes to you and yours.
     
  18. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    I see secular humanism as a respectable position. I agree with the value of being outside the demographics you listed. In fact it’s the only logical place to be. It took me 3 decades to realize politics is the least efficient use of my time and energy if personal achievement and charity towards others is the goal, which I’ve concluded it is.

    My one concern with secular humanism is the door it leaves open to individuals or groups placing different values on other human lives. But that’s not unique to secular humanism…and at least secular humanism attempts to close the door even if it’s only a tattered screen door or the lower half of a dutch door at the end of the process.

    Just out of curiosity are you more in to nihilism or rather the idea science can define objective morality?
     
  19. Torus34

    Torus34 Well-Known Member

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    Hi again, 557.

    The tattered screen door allusion was a delight. I try to write with little tidbits for the skilled reader and find them all too few on the ground in most forum prose.

    As to secular humanism, the secular restriction means that I set religious claims and dogmas aside. As soon as one accepts an unknowable supreme being as real, logic falters. Doing so also relieves me of the task of sorting out which religion has a corner on 'The Truth' and which does not. That doesn't mean that I poo-pooh the peace of mind and personal strength some derive from their faith. Faith can, for some, move personal mountains.

    Then I begin with the concept of the good. It's an old one. I use it as a guide. My first question, presented with a societal or personal choice, is 'What or which is the better good for h. sapiens?' Not for my family, or my community, or my city or my state or my country. For us. All of us.

    And that leads to the problem of stating what is moral or ethical. I attack that from the far end, as it were. There are many things which are indefensible morally. Once these are seen as no-no's, what remains is given a temporary pass as acceptable morality. The search for what is right and true goes on from there. There are few definitive guideposts.

    I've joked from time to time that my final marker should contain the inscription, "It depends . . .".

    Sincere regards.
     
  20. mswan

    mswan Well-Known Member

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    Politics is a blood sport. Someone should write a book about that. :)
     
  21. submarinepainter

    submarinepainter Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Have left and came back, I guess it's addicting ?
     
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  22. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    I believe I saw you comment on the scarcity of appreciation for carefully crafted prose in another thread. I’ll admit I’ve become lazy about putting my best foot forward on PF. The first forum I joined years ago (not political) was populated by a majority who appreciated more refined communication including references to history, references to classics, and wide array of literary devices.

    Here on PF a smash-mouth “get in, get it done, and get out” format is the default it seems. I guess I’ve more often than not done as the Romans. In the spirit of the OP I suppose being in Rome is a poor excuse for lazy writing though…

    Interesting. Although I do not identify as a secular humanist I mostly play one on PF. I’m in the unique position of having both a solid education from a religious perspective as well as an equally solid education from a secular science-based perspective. More importantly, the religious based part respected empirical evidence and the scientific method and minimized the dogmatic. I’m not saying I didn’t encounter zealots or dogmatism, but neither were common in my experience.

    This two-sided education enables me to address subjects like climate, human/animal behavior, evolutionary biology, etc. from a purely secular standpoint—which is my default on PF.

    However, since I’m versed in the nuts and bolts of both worldviews, what most see as dichotomy between religion/science I see as mostly false dichotomy. My evidence for this is the fact the majority things a religious dogmatist believes about science are not true. On the flip side, the majority of things a dogmatic evolutionary atheist would believe about tenets of Christianity are not true.

    This is not at all surprising because a person with a dogmatic religious education will be ignorant of all but that dogma. Same with one receiving a purely secular education—just a lack of actual knowledge of the other “tribe”.

    Add to this the oft observed situation where the religious dogmatist doesn’t even subscribe to the foundations of the religion they claim to follow and the pure secularist often rejecting evidence produced by the scientific method and things get messy.

    When the differences are politicized and the tribes are forced into conflict without even understanding the foundational principles of the other, Then we end up here in history where nine times out of ten the individuals from both tribes want essentially the same thing but are poised to tear each other limb from limb anyway—mostly because of lack of understanding.

    This is very unfortunate in my opinion. It seems you would agree it’s unfortunate since you see value outside of secular humanism.


    Ah, yes—the concept of “good”. So not a nihilist but not an ethical naturalist either. If you see some things as hard no-no’s but others as subjective circumstantially, how do you decide which specific dilemma goes in the deontological column and which goes in the consequential column? Or are you a pure consequentialist? If some issues go in the deontological column what puts them there? Traditional Enlightenment principles, traditional Judeo/Christian values, contemporary science, something else, or a combination of the above?



    “It depends” is a correct answer to most queries. But I believe it’s the screen door—especially when the abode it controls the ingress and egress of contains unbridled appetite for power or influence or wealth. It allows things entrance that further corrupt and allows exit of things that harm others.

    Apologies for all the questions. You are the first dedicated secular humanist I’ve encountered that knows why they are and what it means. When I encounter something new to me I ask questions! It’s an epigenetic trait which I believe my father provided both the nature and nurture components of.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2022
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  23. Adfundum

    Adfundum Moderator Staff Member Donor

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    Good morning,
    I don't think I ever posted with the thought that I would change someone's mind, but I did feel a need to question why people believe what they do. That's not something many folks feel comfortable with, and the usual response to being questioned is to "Google it".

    I agree that people hold tightly to their opinions, and the harder others try to change those opinions, the harder people hold on to them. Our beliefs and biases are our reality. That points to the psychology of things and a feeling of humiliation if you get proved wrong (which takes us into the science of brain chemicals).

    I like the idea of getting people to think of our problems as complex. Simplifying our beliefs with those easy, cheap answers is a big part of the problem. We tend to see things in binary ways. It us vs them. The middle ground approach requires a lot of thought, and it can confuse us and make us sleepy. Taking that Socratic approach is like examining every grain of sand on the beach to get an accurate definition of what a beach is.

    Socrates liked to start discussions by saying he knew nothing. I'd say that's true for all of us in many ways. We're convinced we know something and we can post a link to prove it. But where's the difference between finding information that supports our biases and actual reality? Why examine the sand? Why not just Google it and use someone else's belief?

    In other words, technology has fueled my more pessimistic side. The kind of "diseducation" I see online today is, IMO, growing pains for our species.
     
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  24. Torus34

    Torus34 Well-Known Member

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    Hi, Adfundum.

    Thanks for taking time to reply.

    The internet can, with some justification, be seen as a means to transmit information. That information may be in the form of words or in visual images or, perhaps in music. The information transmitted can be 'true' or 'false'. The difference between the two can be many things. Freedom from 'photoshopping' is one. Freedom from slant's another. Freedom from debunkable concepts or facts is yet a third.

    For poor old country mice such as myself, the problem is one of deciding what is important enough to me to merit exploration. If I can convince someone that exploration is a useful personal tool, I'm pleased.

    Regards, best wishes to you and yours.
     
  25. Torus34

    Torus34 Well-Known Member

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    Hi again, 557.

    What we [you and me] really need is a cozy pub, a bottle of a decent red wine, and lots of time to compare thoughts on many topics. You've covered a lot of ground in the quote above.

    Taking on some of your questions, I've never tried to define my position further. I've been concerned that adding labels to my beliefs -- structuring them -- might lead to eventual paradoxes or untenable yes/no situations. This may well stem from the thought that once you leave the 'hard' sciences, structures without all sorts of logical quirks are inevitable. Even dear old mathematics, thanks to Mr. Kurt Godel, is at the least incomplete. Btw, one of my fave books is Godel, Escher, Bach: an eternal golden braid, by Douglas Hofstadter.

    To be continued . . .

    Regards, and best wishes.
     
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