Why nobody wants to join the Army this year

Discussion in 'Warfare / Military' started by Nightmare515, Jul 13, 2022.

  1. Grey Matter

    Grey Matter Well-Known Member Donor

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    There was one thing I found in this thread that bugs the crap out of me.

    This assertion that the Army won’t repair a knee, but will provide sexual reassignment surgeries.

    If this is true, and knowing what little I know of the Army I wouldn’t be surprised at all if it is, then, yeah, FTA and ETS and let ‘em figure out why they can’t get enough peeps to maintain readiness.

    ***
    On top of this, there is the matter of crap like Stop Loss and the successful elimination of media coverage of what the US government is doing with us in places like Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan. Think whatever fake nonsense it is that you want to think about the fake media, but back in the day, the fake media is what ended Vietnam.
     
  2. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    No, it will not. Because most only serve from 4 to 6 years.

    And it is not a cut, and only affects those that joined in the last few years. Those that were already in and had more than 6 years in at that time were not affected at all.

    And to be honest, the reason most stay in until retirement is not for the money, it never has been. Most do it because they want to serve, and the benefits. Which are not affected at all.

    I am retired also, and the money is nothing when compared to the benefits I get for being retired.
     
  3. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    No, it will not.

    They will pay for any medications for those "transitioning", but they do not and will not pay for the surgery.

    And they will repair a knee, depending on the circumstances. However, most injuries of that kind are career ending anyways, so that is really not a concern of the military, but of the VA.
     
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  4. Grey Matter

    Grey Matter Well-Known Member Donor

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    Thanks for clarifying this.
     
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  5. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Loved that area. Really enjoyed POM. Best assignments I ever had.
     
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  6. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    True, but that's the news environment today, and we're all worse off for it. Certainly this Ukraine war is the worse covered in my lifetime, with only propaganda passing for news.
     
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  7. JonK22

    JonK22 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah it's nice here, 76 degrees in Pebble Beach today, watched golfers on the course most of the day...
     
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  8. JonK22

    JonK22 Well-Known Member

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    You still get VA medical benefits even after 3 years. MOST I knew through the Legion and VFW were drafted. Most stayed for 20+. Most did stay because of where they grew up, poor.


    If you retire at 20 years service you get 40% of your final base pay. If you retire at 30 years service you get 60% of your final base pay. You can either get your full retirement when eligible or opt to get a lump-sum benefit at retirement.

    https://www.military.com/benefits/m...u retire at 20,lump-sum benefit at retirement.


    ONCE AGAIN, IT'S A CUT FROM 50% AND 75%, IT IS SUPPOSED TO SAVE THE US GOV'T MONEY, YES THOSE THAT DON'T GO THE 20 WILL GET SOMETHING, THOSE THAT DO LOSE SOMETHING!!!
     
  9. Grey Matter

    Grey Matter Well-Known Member Donor

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    You are unlikely to win against the shroom dude. For the majority of folks approaching retirement in the service now, the revised benefits were not made retroactively, were they? Be very very careful arguing anything military with the shroom. He will more than likely shred you if you are off by more than 3 MOA and usually he’s correct as far as I can tell to <= 2. I’ve only caught one concession from him regarding that Ethernet *maybe* more of a software specification than a hardware specification. And that was I think a grudgingly narrow concession to
    his point that the fact is yep, Ethernet pretty much equals RJ45.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2022
  10. JonK22

    JonK22 Well-Known Member

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    It's simply called MATH. Going from 50% for 20 to 40% is a REDUCTION in benefits. Going from 75% to 60% for 30, is also a REDUCTION.
     
  11. Grey Matter

    Grey Matter Well-Known Member Donor

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    Effective dates is what was in question. Need I elaborate more or is this sufficiently clear?
     
  12. JonK22

    JonK22 Well-Known Member

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    YOUR opinion, I pointed out it was a cut. Pretty simple really
     
  13. Grey Matter

    Grey Matter Well-Known Member Donor

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    That’s not all you pointed out was it? Were you not making an argument that it would impact current recruitment numbers negatively?
     
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  14. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Can you not yell?

    Everybody gets VA benefits if they serve past 90 days. Does not matter how much longer after that it is, so long as they get a discharge that is not Dishonorable.

    And it is not a cut, as so long as one invests it wisely they will end up with even more at the end.

    And if somebody joined the military with the very idea of doing 20 years then getting a big pension, then I say that the military is not for them. Let them join the postal service.
     
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  15. JonK22

    JonK22 Well-Known Member

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    I believe YES IT WILL. Because I don't know how many service members I've met in my life who had 12-13 in and reupped BECAUSE they wanted the 20. Now they don't need it right?
     
  16. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    That's a retention issue, not a recruitment issue.
     
  17. JonK22

    JonK22 Well-Known Member

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    Sure it is, went from defined to If they invest wisely" BS

    Listen, I grew up, literally in the American Legion and VFW's, most people I met who retired, were from poor families/areas. The ones who did 20+ WERE those people, by and large. Now I still live on the Monterey Peninsula, but since Ft Ord closed 25 years ago, don't have as much contact with military.

    But I know from hundreds of personal interactions through the years, to the visits to 2 different VA hospitals multiple times in the 1970's, patriotism was high, but feeding their families was priority, which most men (mainly) did to get their 20. Those that were in just for their 2-4 years, were professionals, came from families of craftsmen or were interested in college, mainly. A different time perhaps, but my experience.

    I have the greatest respect for ANYONE going into the military for whatever reasons, but to see the wounded, no arms, legs, sight, burns I did as a teenager, I'm 100% against wars of choice the US has mainly been involved in the past 20+ years.
     
  18. JonK22

    JonK22 Well-Known Member

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    True, but they do go hand in hand. Not enough staying, need more people.

    The biggest problem, IMHO is the last 2 wars we fought. My kids friends enlisted, and those that went overseas, I'd guess half have PTSD. One guy so severally, 15 years out of service, he works just enough to go hide out camping in Big Sur to get away from nightmares. He killed a kid that had a rifle, 9-10 years old.
     
  19. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Yadda-yadda-yadda.

    And once again, one can make far more working 20+ years at the Postal Service, or one of a great many other government jobs. Far more than they can ever make in the military. And without the threat of "up or out" hanging over their heads. Or getting shoved somewhere they absolutely detest, like Fort Hunter-Ligget or some other hole.

    Yes, it is obvious that you respect the military, you also hate the military. And have no experience yourself, just an unreasonable hatred that is mostly in your mind.

    You had experiences and visits to the VA in the 1970's. You are aware that was 50 years ago now, right? That actually predates the 401K program and others, which is what the military is now doing. I actually think the current system is a lot better, as you can actually increase the amount after you retire. Something you can not do under the old system. What you get is what you get.
     
  20. JonK22

    JonK22 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry you are so angry, PTSD perhaps?

    I visited HOPSPITALS nothing to do with retirement, saw the horrors that people like LBJ, Nixon, Dubya/Cheney hoisted on US and the world

    Fort Hunter Liggett, pretty nice now along with Camp "Bob". Close to Paso Robles, thriving community.

    Again, Dad retired with 22 years Army, was around hundreds of veterans. Know plenty now, one of my best friends is retired civil service after his military tour. But het if hate is all you have, it's all you have.

    ONCE MORE though, Gov't CUT retirement which will save THEM $2 billion a year, estimated

    Effects on Costs
    • Costs are initially higher under the BRS because of service expenditures for CP and Thrift Savings Plan matching contributions, but costs will eventually lower because of the decrease in defined-benefit retirement costs
    https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR1887.html

    BTW, THE PEOPLE USED TO PAY ZERO TOWARDS THEIR RETIREMENT
     
  21. Grey Matter

    Grey Matter Well-Known Member Donor

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    I BELIEVE THE WORST POSSIBLE CASE IS THAT IT WILL BE A WASH FOR RECRUITMENT. THERE WILL BE SOME FOLKS THAT WILL SAY HEY, NOW THAT THE MARINES OFFER A 401K MATCH I'M IN! FOR OTHERS LOOKING FOR THAT SWEET 401K IT MIGHT BE THE ARMY OR THE NAVY. EVERYONE KNOWS THOUGH THAT THE AIR FORCE IS WHERE THE REAL MONEY IS AT!!! THOSE GUYS GET PAID UNDER THE TABLES WITH FREE CHIPS AND TICKETS TO CHRISTINA AGUILERA IN VEGAS BABY. FLIGHTS ARE IN MODIFIED F16 LOANERS THE AIR FORCE ALLOWS PILOTS TO BORROW FOR THE WEEKEND! THE GUNPOD HAS BEEN REMOVED AND THERE IS A COMPETITION AMONG THE ENLISTED MEN FOR "THE VEGAS CUBBYHOLE". SOMETIMES THOUGH, EVEN WHEN AN ENLISTED MAN WINS, HE'S DISPLACED BY A SUPER HOTT ENLISTED CHIC THAT THE PILOT SNEAKS INTO THE CUBBYHOLE OF THE MODIFIED F16!!! IT'S INSANE!!! IT'S AWESOME!!!

    I would like to assert that nobody joins the service with the intent to put in 20 or more, but there are some who do.

    I know of 4 friends of mine and one other guy from our battery from the 80s that managed to do 20+, but only one of these guys went straight through with it.

    1/5 and he got out at exactly 20 and he did 20 for the pay, the benefits, the opportunities and he didn't mind the bullshit of the Army by anywhere close to the level I disliked it.

    2/5s went on to college and both went more or less full time Army Reserve during and after. Full time Army Reserve, something like that, I'm not really clear on the details of what the gig was for them, but one pretty amazingly actively sought out duty in Iraq and Afghanistan, living in New Mexico these days unfortunately having taken a hit from an IED in Afghanistan as best I understand it. Unfortunately this is "the other guy" and he doesn't talk to me since I asserted that PMC XTac ammo and SK manufacturing I'd put up against any Black Hills ammo all day everyday. Whatever, I respect his tenacity and his service but the dude was just barely more than a weasel when I knew him. The other guy in this category was kinda a nemesis for me, having known him along with the next guy for a full four years including doing basic together as well as of course Pershing AIT, although we were a MOSUT unit so we didn't really get to have AIT. Tom, nemesis is not the right word, but it's about in the ballpark. Awesome dude all things considered, even though he's a f'wit Trumpster....

    1/5 was my bud who is pretty much in the same position as @Nightmare515 if I read his posts in this thread correctly: E9 Sergeant Major: Woosh-Ah, badass top of the enlisted chain of command and only a tool of a newb LT would believe that they outrank an E9. I'm not 100% certain about this, but I'm pretty sure that you better be an O4 or better to take on an E9 if he's even close to being right. And if he's right by the book then that O1, 2 or 3 will lose and have a permanent mark on their record for having been so foolish. Enough of a mark to make it exceedingly unlikely that they'll exceed O4. Of course the flip side of this is that no E9 is gonna give an O any beef about stupid stuff. An O1 has some crazy thing she wants to do, no problem, it's a learning opportunity for them and if there is even any interaction between an O1 and an E9 it's probably pretty rare. When I was in, E9 at a minimum was a Battalion level position and the E9 was the enlisted folks advisor to an LTC, O5. So he or she carried de facto O5 rank against all comers. My buddy Chris lives in San Antonio and hopefully were hooking up this Fall for the first time in almost 40 years. I'll be grilling some Costco Prime tenderloins on this amazing gravity fed Masterbuilt 560: effing to die for these steaks! He's submitted his retirement package and is hoping for full disability even though there ain't nothing wrong with him. This is the game the military plays with the nation that has chosen to ignore them other than to thank them for their service. We're the same age, 58. If he were to stay in he might get to score a CSM position in three more years and he's not interested in it.

    Finally there is Elvis. Not his real name. Dude lives a charmed life. Managed to finagle a path to the ultimate sham rank of CW4 and retire at about 36 years. This is just how good this guy is, scored a CW4 rank with pretty much zero college credits. Lives up the road from me around Conroe - and this is another friend of mine I'm hoping to hook up with for some Q and cold beers with this year.

    I guess while I'm having fun telling stories I'll toss in a bit more.

    The whole officers v enlisted culture clash was something I was very familiar with, but from one side only until a little over a decade later. I've enjoyed the fun I've had in engineering over the years seeing a similar situation breakout between engineers and designers. There was one guy I worked with that was particularly full of big time attitude toward engineers that I personally found pretty amusing. Especially given that he himself was a college grad with a degree in economics from Texas Tech, hahaha. I came to find this out one day when he went far enough with his trash talk about engineers and their worthlessness. Meh, college degrees, whatever, I needed the additional education, some, a few, don't. This guy seemingly didn't appreciate his, maybe because his daddy paid for it. That, unfortunately is not unfair to him. He got a job doing design work at Jacobs because his daddy that paid for his degree from Tech was a senior level designer at Jacobs. Fairly solid guy, and he always did his job and was generally pretty reserved in the manner he comported himself. Technically there are things that I can do that he can't, but overall there is no way I'd have wanted to get into a pissing contest with him and he never gave me a reason to even think about it. Aside for giving him some s when he was talking that smack about engineer college boys, knowing he was a Tech grad. Yeah, that was fun, definition of a sheepish grin when I fired back on him about that one.

    There's a fun part in Nightmare's earlier stories in this thread that reminds me of very similar stuff I heard from my Top once when I actually hung out with him like one time. Conversation got around to the all volunteer Army and Top said that he didn't think it filled the ranks with the same quality folk that it got with the draft. That caught my attention. He said that it wasn't anywhere near a deal breaker, just that with the draft it seemed to him that the Army got a broader spectrum of abilities and that overall there was higher quality on average. And he pointed out that a lot of the volunteers were in the Army because they couldn't cut it in real life: and that's a fact. Met many of them myself and was probably borderline one of them myself. Well, actually I was certainly one of them myself when I first joined. Didn't have a clue what I wanted to do with my life other than that I damn sure didn't want to go to college at that time. Had enough of school.

    Now, from my point of view this is similar to what I read when I read Nightmare bitching about this new generation. The story about the kid wanting to play lawyer for example. Please, these types of troops have forever been a thing in the Army. I'll never forget one of my NCOs laughing at me arguing with him one time and he told me to settle down. I was a pretty good troop and was easily one of the top contributors for any opportunity to actually do some kinda work in the only US stateside battalion Pershing had. Ugh, what a shitty four year assignment that was. Anyway he took an opportunity to rib me about the Army wanting smart guys like me and wondered aloud why and what for. It was pretty funny except that he was not really kidding around. From his point of view, it was better to just have troops that did what they were told and didn't ask questions, meh, whatever. I always question stuff and I made E5 at 3.5 years, so smoke a phatty brah and relax. Gen Z will get it done too.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2022
  22. JonK22

    JonK22 Well-Known Member

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    100% agree.
     
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  23. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Well retention and recruitment probably do link up a little bit on a Venn Diagram, but they've mostly seemed like separate issues to me. The recruitment crisis might not be so severe if the Army would ease up on their "up and out" policy. It forces out people who've found a niche and would stay in their position if it were allowed, and pushes up subpar people to be NCO's which also hurts retention if your experience with junior leadership is mostly negative.

    I really don't know how much the wars impact recruiting, but they certainly impact family members encouraging and supporting younger family to enlist.
     
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  24. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    To give this perspective, I will open with your last statement there.

    "Close to Paso Robles". Yeah, if you count almost 60 miles from the gate to Paso Robles "close"

    You see, that is the difference from believing you know something, with actual experience. And the Commissary on the base is largely a joke, little more than a glorified convenience store. With the Exchange largely being the same..

    Now to return to the first. Like your screaming about my having PTSD. Great job of veteran shaming, because a Veteran knows more than you do about something.

    And I know you said you visited "Hospitals". For goodness sakes, you very clearly said VA Hospital. And once again, your contempt for the military shines through. Makes me glad you never served.

    Oh, and Fort Hunter-Liggett is hardly "Pretty nice". I have spent a hell of a lot of time there, it sucks. In fact, another one that like me was in the Marines before going in the Army thought the only base that was worse he had ever been to was MWTC Bridgeport. There is literally nothing on HL. A crappy rec center that is only open a few hours a day and is old as hell. A 4 or 6 lane bowling alley that is also almost never open. And that really is about it. The clinic is "military only", so dependents have to truck over an hour each way not only for things at the store, but any medical care or prescriptions. Probably the only good thing about it was replacing the grossly overpriced and so greasy it was almost inedible "Rosa's" with a Subway franchise.
     
  25. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Of course, those draftees were a wide spectrum of the population, and came from all walks. And they primarily just wanted to do their 2 years and go home. Therefore, simply doing their job and not getting in any kind of trouble was a primary concern of theirs. Plus the draftees primarily got the more soft and cushy jobs as opposed to the enlistees. Things like vehicle mechanic, supply, administration, cook, things like that. And the majority only served stateside and in Europe.

    I think what I find even more disturbing today is the clear break I am now seeing in the military when compared to civilians. In a recent study in 2019, 79% of new recruits in the Army had a family member who served. And that is sharply up from the 33% from a similar study in 2011. That to me is a frightening statistic, considering that only 1% of the population have served. The military is almost becoming a "family tradition" today, which is only causing civilians like Junk22 to ostracize them even more.

    And in my experience, that experience of the Top was probably in the transition from Draft to All Volunteer from the mid-1970s to the mid-1980s. But since then, the military has changed a hell of a lot. For example, where once it was just suggested somebody have a High School Diploma, now it is mandated. Not even a GED is enough, one needs that and from 20-40 credit hours at a community college. ASVAB scores have risen over the decades, and things that were once easy to get a waiver for are now almost impossible.
     

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