WHY NOT A NATIONAL HEALTHCARE SERVICE FOR EVERYBODY?

Discussion in 'Health Care' started by LafayetteBis, Oct 20, 2019.

  1. lemmiwinx

    lemmiwinx Well-Known Member Donor

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    Crime is popular in America because it pays. And pays bigly if you can get yourself elected to public office. But I digress, a crowd of feral "teens" can storm any convenience store in the country and rob it blind with no fear of ever being prosecuted.
     
  2. roorooroo

    roorooroo Well-Known Member Donor

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    Plenty of varied opinions about how things should be, whether we are speaking of taxpayer funded healthcare, taxpayer funded college, or taxpayer funded whatever.

    A solution: The government will provide an optional healthcare plan with the caveat that it will be funded by only those who choose the government plan. Those who do not choose the government plan will be free to use and fund their own private healthcare.

    Those who opt in on the government plan can vote on how the costs will be spread amongst themselves. Perhaps the funding method would be based on income, the more you make, the more you contribute.

    The above could also be applied to government funded college, and any other social-democracy program.

    Is there anyone here who would opt for that government healthcare plan funded by those who participate in it? Why, or why not?
     
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  3. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The war on drugs. We need to end it.

    The wars on guns and abortion too. While they don't (yet) meaningfully contribute to our massive prison population like our war on drugs, they will if we continue down this road of trying to control supply of and demand for popular goods and services by making them illegal.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2020
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  4. lemmiwinx

    lemmiwinx Well-Known Member Donor

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    Incarceration rates don't trouble me until I hear stories like New York setting no bail and releasing dangerous criminals same they were arrested. You can never incarcerate too many criminals who prey on innocent people like your mom or perhaps even yourself. Am I mistaken?
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2020
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  5. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I agree. If someone wants to suicide on drugs, that's their business. But what is interesting is that if one looks at the reports (one here) the rise in incidences of crime is due to the fact that the crimes are committed over the Internet!

    The war on guns should pass through legislation. But, for as long as the Replicants refuse to assist, it would take a Dem-control of Congress and the Presidency to pass any legislation that, for instance, forbade the sale or possession of fully-automatic weapons.

    Which type of weapon is assigned the most fatalities. See here below:
    [​IMG]

    In no state are they illegal. But one state is trying to doing something about guns. See here.
     
  6. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    From Vox, here: The controversy over New York’s bail reform law - explained:
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2020
  7. lemmiwinx

    lemmiwinx Well-Known Member Donor

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    Last edited: Mar 8, 2020
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  8. Creasy Tvedt

    Creasy Tvedt Well-Known Member

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    WHY NOT A NATIONAL HEALTHCARE SERVICE FOR EVERYBODY?

    Here's why.

    French medics warn health service is on brink of collapse ...
    www.theguardian.com › world › jun › french-medics-health-service-c...

    Jun 11, 2019 - French medics warn health service is on brink of collapse ... leading France's world-class health system to the brink of collapse and putting ... a former hospital doctor – is presenting a new healthcare policy to parliament this ...

    More than 600 French doctors threaten to quit amid funding ...
    www.theguardian.com › world › dec › 600-french-doctors-threaten-t...
    Dec 16, 2019 - “Public hospitals in France are dying,” wrote 660 medics from hospitals ... The long-running healthcare strikes are proving a major headache to the ... as a trauma nurse, dealing with serious car crash accidents north of Paris.

    French Socialism Has Failed | National Review
    www.nationalreview.com › Magazine › June 03, 2019, Issue

    May 16, 2019 - France spends around 11 percent of its GDP on health care every year, ... now we are doing okay, but the system will collapse sooner or later.

    Socialist healthcare only works until you run out of other people's money.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2020
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  9. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Explain how, if you can, rather than just make a statement!

    This is a DEBATE Forum, not a Message Board ...!
     
  10. JCS

    JCS Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I comprehend it very well. I just view it as something that needs to be eliminated entirely. It has no place in what is supposed to be a more "enlightened" age. We're in 2020! Yet capitalism, the monetary system, and this stupid government is the best we can do? This insane system has remained unchanged for virtual millennia...only to have evolved in its efficiency with advancing technologies & a shrinking world.

    This is NO solution. This is a bandaid. You're thinking INSIDE the box and still abiding by the rules of the game. In so doing, you & many others that think this way are short-changing themselves. Is this what life is all about to you? Accumulating money, owning stuff, boring/meaningless work, brain-dead entertainment/media, unrelenting environmental destruction, increasing chronic illness worldwide, and primitive technology?

    The ENTIRE system needs to be abolished. That's the ONLY solution. It's not rocket science. There's no need for a monetary system, nor any need for a governing/ruling body. The only reason why human history has continued to repeat itself over the course of millennia is because of a clever, but insidious, programming & conditioning within the labile minds of the masses and collective at large, that they "need" a leader to follow & dictate their lives. If we continue thinking & behaving this way we'll never transcend this idiotic slave system.

    Don't you know why the "masses of asses" and the "useless eaters" must be kept in a persistent dumbed down state? Why they must always be kept in a state of fear? Why they must always be kept divided & fighting? Why they can never be allowed to organize? Why they must always believe they need money & rulers or else society would implode? Why they must keep working longer hours & more days? Why they must honor & support their military?

    There's no "fixing" it. It's not designed to be fixable. That's why it needs to be eliminated.

    Nevertheless...taxation by itself is not "unfair". It depends on what those taxes are used for. European nations have a better handle on how to use it more wisely in the way they invest more of it into its people...but they could certainly do more.

    But if you're the type that wants to stay in the "game of money", then taxes can be abolished by simply having a government that does all the hiring for every type of job deemed essential to the survival & well-being of the people and the environment. If most people work for the government, the government becomes truly people-owned & operated. No more room will there be for corruption and abuse...and no more need would there be for taxes. The nation & its people benefit directly from its own labor.

    Not-for-profit government hires workers who directly produce goods/services...workers are paid by government...workers purchase their own goods/services from government...the revenue returns to government. For-profit big business gets nada & disappears. Also, all work will be essential work, which would eliminate the huge number of meaningless jobs otherwise necessary to run private businesses (eg, marketing, advertising, sales, retail, insurance, accounting, lobbying, etc.), and wasteful production of office supplies will be eliminated. Further, because workers will have direct say in how the entire system is run, they will no longer need representatives...so the legislature can be done away with. Nor will there will be any need for a President or the Supreme Court. The legislature can even be morphed into a non-law-making institution that functions only as mediation in disputes, and housed only by those of the highest integrity, wisdom, and merit.

    Ultimately, such a system could be an effective stepping stone towards a society absent of a monetary system, which would become an easier task as it advances technologically more rapidly than before, and able to implement more machines to perform all the tedious/boring/dangerous work. It's a no-brainer!

    Forget the rich. There's no reason to have rich people if we are to live as a socially cohesive, cooperative society with abundance, advanced technology, and the best & most modern comforts for all. What is there to be rich for other than to impose one's will over another, or to hoard & control essential resources that others depend on, or to inflate one's ego? Of what import is any of this to society, to human well-being, and environmental stewardship?
     
  11. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No, I disagree with your response entirely. (Everything has already changed fundamentally in the 1990s with the Information Age that was rushed upon us by the Internet.)

    Nations do not change without substantial strife because we, the sheeple, do not accept drastic alterations to our style-of-living easily. When that does happen, it is really quite wrenching economically. (WW1 produced WW2 - the last time that occured in Europe.)

    No country would accept your solutions - change has to happen gradually over a very long period of time. People need to get "used to them" by understanding their necessity. And eight-years (of one presidency) is not really enough when necessary changes are fundamentally drastic. And they are indeed in the US. Whyzzat?*

    Which is the serious economic situation in which the US finds itself today. It has one of the Worst Income Disparities of any modern nation. The next time the economy stumbles - as any economic-entity does every so often - the consequences will be drastic ...

    *Here's why:
    -We have exited the Industrial Age with most of its economic-value having been transferred to China and the Far-East.
    -We are entering the Information Age where a higher qualification of studies (post-secondary) are needed to find a decent job with decent income.
    -For that to happen to the lower-classes (where it is an absolute must for these people to find better-jobs), then,
    -They need instruction for the qualifications that is
    very-low-cost. Since they cannot otherwise afford the schooling.
    -So any national fundamental-change just aint-gonna-happin without the US adopting free post-secondary education at state institutions of learning.
     
  12. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes, if people are too-stoopid to understand the consequences then death or physical anguish is what they perhaps deserve.

    Otoh, a National Healthcare System should be there to help them die comfortably - and, believe me, that they will expire is EXACTLY what will happen. Excessive drug-takers here in Europe have free public-care (hospitalization) when it comes to dying from drugs.

    It seems that, because of human-nature, the more people are "given" (in terms of social-services) very often the more they become dependent upon them. I prefer to think that they do not have the intelligence to better themselves. But, frankly, I have never seen any really competent "study" of the matter.

    Whatever the reason for "failing", they need help and they should get it. Rather than sleeping in the streets.

    PS: This past winter was very, very cold. So, there were in the larger cities a public-service to attend to people sleeping on the streets. It was amazing the number who refused to be taken to a shelter (with a bed)! They contented themselves with a hot-drink offered to them.
     
  13. David Landbrecht

    David Landbrecht Well-Known Member

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    WHY NOT A NATIONAL HEALTHCARE SERVICE FOR EVERYBODY?
    Lobbies.
     
  14. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So, let's lobby!

    If they can do it, so can we ...
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2020
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  15. JCS

    JCS Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Socialism is not the problem in France. As is usually the case in France & worldwide, it is capitalism.

    Macron is a former investment banker who earned nearly $4 million during his time at one of the world’s most prestigious financial institutions.

    France’s Message for Capitalism Is Quite Simple: Adapt or Die
    France is sounding an alarm for the world's advanced economies: Capitalism is tearing them apart. [SOURCE]

    Now Macron really is the president of the rich
    Macron called 'president of the rich' in new study
    France’s richest gain most from Emmanuel Macron’s tax reforms
    Macron is accused by members of the Yellow vests of being an "ultra-liberal president for the rich".
    France has substantial debts owed to the IMF
    Macron is a Freemason.
    France is a member nation of the EU. Macron is a staunch proponent of the EU because the EU is a European capitalist's dream.

    If a Wealth Tax is Such a Good Idea, Why Did Europe Kill Theirs?
    Iain Duncan Smith says the EU helps the rich at the expense of the poor
    Swiss banks benefit as rich Britons line up escape route from Brexit chaos
    The eye, the needle and the camel: Rich countries can benefit from EU membership
    What's happening in France is also happening in Sweden: Capitalism is taking over. Sweden is now experiencing the same issues as France due to policies that benefit the wealthy.
     
  16. David Landbrecht

    David Landbrecht Well-Known Member

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    Too expensive, too time consuming.
    End this kind of lobbying.
     
  17. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    In a word, "Bollocks!"

    France is what as known as a Social-Democracy with a market-economy based upon capital. If you want to go back to the stone-age of barter, then please do!

    You are likely completely unfamiliar with those two words above in red. What it means - unlike the US - is that certain basic needs are supposed to be provided by the state because they are key and should not be awarded to private-enterprise.

    But that condition does not make the country "socialist" because (as I never tire of explaining) the economy is not "socialist" in nature. Private Enterprise is still responsible for purveying most Goods&Services that comprises a country based upon a Market-Economy. (Socialism is a long-since-dead political theory whereby the government owns-totally-the-means-of-production!)

    About 580 million yanks live in Europe (from here) - and a great many have worked and/or retired here. So, we aint goin' home.

    So, my point is this:
    *The fact that I pay taxes in France is perfectly acceptable. They support the various services provided by the French government. One of which is healthcare, that will assure me that I will be living 3/4 years more than any Yank reading this comment and living permanently in the US.
    *The fact that if you earn more than $100K a year in Europe then, as an American, you are obliged to pay American taxes on it. In addition to national taxes of one's country of residence. Which also is a US commandment that
    NO OTHER COUNTRY ON EARTH applies to its citizens!
    *The fact that America is so hell-bent on profits, profits, profits and far-too-low Upper-Income Taxation both lead to America's high-coefficient of Income Disparity. It is probably the most basic Societal-Ethic Flaw of any developed country on earth.

    *Whilst Europe corrected those societal-defaults by assuring National Healthcare and almost Free Postsecondary Education ...
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2020
  18. Creasy Tvedt

    Creasy Tvedt Well-Known Member

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    Socialism works great, until it doesn't.

    Screen Shot 2020-03-10 at 7.46.32 AM.png
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2020
  19. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No, neither is it capitalism. With what means of exchange would you replace "capitalism"? Barter? :disbelief:

    France (and Europe) has a very large contingent who vote Center-Left. They want most to keep both Healthcare and Tertiary Education available at very low costs. Largely because, since the 1950s, at least three generations have benefitted from their availability.

    That will not change one iota in the European Union. Count on it. I am ...
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2020
  20. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Got that VERY wrong! It's 580 thousand ...
     
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  21. JCS

    JCS Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What France is "known as" or used to be makes no difference. What it's becoming is what matters. The nation's system has been increasingly benefiting the wealthy more than it used to through tax cuts, EU membership, trade deals, business stakes (eg, KLM), Middle East war effort/aid, and other typical capitalist measures. Through tax cuts & unnecessary spending that helps the rich/corporations Macron now has to cut social programs to compensate for reduced tax revenue. The same is happening under Trump.

    Hence, capitalism is what's tearing France (actually, the world) apart...not socialism.
    That's what we'll go back to if we continue on this destructive capitalist trend. Have you not looked around you? Can you not see what's been going on in every society and especially the environment? Can you not see that the capitalist system/mentality/scam is behind all the environmental destruction & violent conflicts?

    Have people no imagination anymore? Can they no longer think outside their capitalist bubble? Can they not see that cooperation in the absence of a ruling class or a monetary system is the most logical means to ensure the highest standard of living for all life on this planet?

    Can they not see that neither money nor bartering are necessary? That humans are such an exquisitely social & ingenious species with incredible potential and a deep love & thirst for personal creativity & exploration...and that this is enough to advance humankind to the stars? We should've been flying to the stars millennia ago, with earth our pristine garden today...but instead been kept in a hypnotic zombie state to toil after money/gold/diamonds/oil PURELY for the benefit of the Few.

    Do you believe all those incredible, beautiful megalithic ancient structures found worldwide, which we cannot even duplicate today, and the incredible advanced technologies written about in ancient texts were the result of some primitive monetary system? If you want an example of what people are capable of when they work for each other and share their knowledge & talents, that is your proof.
    True, they should NOT be awarded to the private enterprise...yet, what you fail to understand is that private enterprise could not exist without socialist measures. Hence why I say capitalism is a parasitic scam.
    No economy using money is 100% socialist. The closest societies to true socialism are unspoiled indigenous cultures (which have existed for 80,000+ years), and the Amish. No nation that uses money can be called "socialist"...though socialist elements/programs can (and must) exist to hold the society together, money or no money.
    Private enterprise exploits an already pre-existing socialist system that (1) establishes a well-structured/managed monetary system, and (2) ensures a ready supply of labor either through slavery or through wage-earners (or both).

    If the society is young (eg, American settlers) and there's a shortage of available/willing labor, slavery is resorted to to ensure profits. If the society is well established, but ventures abroad to plunder resources from undeveloped regions, then slavery can be resorted to again with impunity to ensure profits.

    When/if slavery is abolished, wage-earners are used for labor. However, this requires institutionalized programming of the masses to (1) accept a ruling class, and (2) accept a monetary system.

    Luckily for the ruling class, institutionalized programming as a means to establish both a ruling class & a monetary system began globally millennia ago. So even today these destructive systems have been easy to foist upon the masses, and thus still exist. (Can you now see why history keeps repeating itself?)

    Thus, socialism always precedes capitalism. In fact, socialism makes capitalism possible. But, just as the slave has no need for the master, socialism has no need for capitalism.
    Socialism: a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the COMMUNITY as a whole.

    You're speaking of an autocratic/authoritarian system. This is not socialism. True socialism has no need of a ruling class nor a monetary system.
    That's because America basically sucks! (And the rest of the world is getting sucky.) American life has become a life of misery & quiet desperation for so many. If it were not for juvenile entertainment/media, sports, drugs, junk food, and fighting politicians to keep Americans distracted from their misery, plus the necessary social programs just to keep people ALIVE & functional, the nation may have imploded long ago.

    But hey...if most Americans feel living in a burning world, toiling for money, shopping, watching TV, playing video games, going to Disney Land, and eating at restaurants is what life is all about...well, don't expect any progressive initiatives from America.
    Sure...but tell that to an average American and they'll call you a "commie lover".
    I know. So why don't you just renounce your U.S. citizenship if you plan never to return to the U.S.? I wouldn't want to pay taxes to a nation I have no need of or live in.
    Ethical or not, the profit motive itself is illogical & unnatural to the survival, well-being, and advancement of a social species. It's the result of mass programming/conditioning...and is thousands of years old.
    Investing the knowledge, talent, skills, and the fruits of labor of any society into its people for the beneift & progress of all, while also promoting environmental responsibility, is always a good thing!
     
  22. JCS

    JCS Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Says the capitalist who could not survive without socialist programs.

    These pics are protests resulting from increasing capitalist (pro-corporation/wealth) measures, and they're becoming worse because Macron favors the wealthy over the working class.

    Plus, protesting has always been in the French blood. They protest frequently to get what they want (because it works)...and it's even said humorously that France has a "revolution" every 6 years.

    With that said...would you like me to post pics & stories of pollution & environmental destruction, slavery, riots, violence, genocide, wars & invasions, corporate/white collar crime, poverty, homelessness, and chronic disease...all as a result of capitalism?
     
  23. JCS

    JCS Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There's are two important factors that need to be appreciated & embraced: cooperation labor & sharing of resources. Add them together and it means each person would work for each other rather than for money. It means each person would literally have millions of others working for them. It also means the nature of most of the work would be essential to benefit to all (rather than to the few) & not harmful to the environment. It means there will be no boring or wasteful jobs/work supportive of or related to money (no banking/business/advertising/marketing/accounting/retail/sales/PR/HR/lobbying/office drone work/etc.). The result is a HUGE surplus of labor, which then means each person will have far less work to do. Add technology and you have machines that can perform all the boring/tedious/dangerous work.

    Ultimately, each person would end up in a field of work of greatest interest to them (and can begin at a very young age), not bound to any strict schedule or quota, and with a ton of free time to pursue other creative ventures, research, exploration, recreation, the arts, travel, time with family/friends, or whatever. The environment would remain pristine, population would remain reasonable & stable, stress would be virtually absent, and health would be optimal. All ideas, inventions, discoveries, and knowledge would be shared which would then advance society by leaps & bounds. The list of benefits is long.

    You can think of it as a "pot luck" system where each person contributes a small part so that all end up with abundance. (In capitalism, one person contributes nothing of benefit to the pot luck party, yet hoards & controls everyone else's contribution.)

    Hence, in a fully cooperative social arrangement, the flow of labor & the fruits of labor would not be filtered through a middle man (money/ruling class/elites/business/politics/govt), but return directly back to & benefit the people.

    So the solution to capitalism is very simple. The problem is getting people to agree to it & giving it a chance...which requires getting around the collective programming & fear. (Now you see why all the propaganda promoting money, shopping/consuming, business "success", competition, war, medical drugs, gossip, and fear of this & fear of that is so strongly pushed.)
    As always, and with ANY nation/group, it's up to the people. But do the people know they can achieve even MORE if they wish it...and all without having to appeal to politicians, and without rioting or protesting?
     
  24. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The above is puerile "pie-in-the-sky" formula that aint-gonna-happin. It is NOT the way humans interact, because they are not taught to do so presently. And mentality is a personal attribute that depends upon the values of the society in which one is raised.

    The element of competition is particularly poignant/dominant in the US. More so than in a great many other countries that - for example - have accepted the principles of a Social Democracy. (Which I am not going to re-explain, just look it up!)

    Where you are very largely defines in-this-world - and your outlook is inculcated by absorbing a prevailing set of dominant principles that affect behaviour. In Europe, people have learned to pay high-taxes and share the services that the taxes subside. Period! Such a notion has become a European societal-principle!

    Yes, such a principle exists in the US, but presently is not the dominant thought-process of political leadership - which any country defines (or not) by means of the democratic right-to-vote and elect representation of political-leadership.

    In the US, you still think that its worth a tremendous amount of money going to "Hah-vahd" Business School because that will get you a high six-figure job. And moneyed happiness!?!

    Such a mentality is fooling nobody but itself ... !
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2020
  25. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah & blah-blah ...
     

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