Why revolvers?

Discussion in 'Firearms and Hunting' started by Xenamnes, Mar 27, 2019.

  1. An Taibhse

    An Taibhse Well-Known Member

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    Try shooting some .357 rounds (as opposed to .38 +) in an enclosed space in low light situations. Or, time yourself putting six rapid shots on target (or multiple targets) and measure your spread. If you don’t see differences in ammo, you aren’t shooting enough...that comes from someone who shoot a considerable amount with .45acp and with revolvers with that have considerably more ft/pnds terminal energy. In shotguns, you don’t notice difference with say, #4 shot and a slug... really? Well, good for you.
     
  2. BillRM

    BillRM Well-Known Member

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    Shotguns!!!!!!!!

    You carry around a shotgun for self defense?

    By their nature ammo types might cause a semi auto to jam in one way or another but no ammo type is going to stop my good old SW revolver from placing a bullet down range.

    That been my point as a good revolver is going to work when you need it the most and the hell with the ammo type and even a well taken care top of the line semi auto might or might not work.

    Hell other then my girlfriend collection of Japanese swords hanging on the wall there is no weapon in my home that is more dependable then my revolver.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2019
  3. An Taibhse

    An Taibhse Well-Known Member

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    Interesting, I guess there’s nothing really wrong with the .41 mag Ruger Redhawk I was handed Monday to repair.
     
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  4. Well Bonded

    Well Bonded Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Why not?

    I have one I keep locked in my truck for just that purpose.

    [​IMG]
     
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  5. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Interesting study, what happens when your in a gunfight using a pistol and I suppose a revolver and what happens when your heart beat starts pumping over 115 bpm.

    You fall into a natural stance using only one hand holding your weapon.

    They used cops who were trained in the two hand Weaver stance.

    SCIENTIFIC AND TEST DATA VALIDATING THE ISOSCELES AND SINGLE-HAND POINT SHOOT TECHNIQUES

    http://static1.1.sqspcdn.com/static...shting.pdf?token=tMMlDLp5hLP/E+FjcRz2LDmdwdM=
     
  6. 6Gunner

    6Gunner Banned

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    As a student of combat pistolcraft it's fascinating to me to see how theories are propagated, debated, expounded upon, etc.; as well as how they stand up in the real-world laboratories of defensive combat. I've talked with and trained with survivors of real gun battles; some trained with one method, others another, and discussed the results of their exposure to the physiological realities of gunfighting and the body reactions they experienced, and what methods held up under stress better. I then compared them to my own experiences, and what I've come to believe is that a lot is dictated by how much practice each individual put in; i.e. it's more the man behind the gun than the gun itself.

    The article cited above states emphatically that "the ability to focus on the front sight of a handgun is not possible when the SNS (Sympathetic Nervous System) is activated", yet several individuals I've talked to had a very different experience. Namely, in the heat of combat the front sight stood out in stark relief. One officer described seeing every nick and scratch in the striations of the front sight of his duty sidearm as he engaged his attacker.

    Officers trained in dynamic movement tended to use two hands when advancing upon their opponent, or if they were moving to their strong side. If they were moving away from their strong hand they tended to fall into single-hand shooting. Ironically, individuals who had not trained diligently with their sidearms were far more likely to shoot one handed than those who trained in two-handed combat isosceles shooting; but older individuals who had been trained in one handed techniques did stick with them.

    This video is interesting to watch, as it talks about the old "crouch and point" method of revolver shooting; to be fair, I've seen some salty old gunmen who were eerily fast and accurate using this method.

    watch
     
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  7. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I've never been in a gunfight with a handgun.

    Been in more than a few firefights with a M-16A1.

    When I was in Nam and was promoted to corporal and became a NGF Sotter Team leader I
    rated a pistol but never checked it out of the armory.
    Just another few more pounds to hump in the bush.
    Just another additional weapon to clean.
    Pistols were sniper bait.

    Took a combat pistol course at Camp Pendleton. We were taught the Applegate stance.


     
  8. 6Gunner

    6Gunner Banned

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    That's part of what I find fascinating about the study. I've talked to a number of people who were in life-or-death fights - police, military, etc. - who were in fights under an astonishing variety of conditions.

    Some of them had experiences that were diametrically opposite to the experiences of others, and they had very different opinions about what was "best" in a given situation. There are some commonalities, but more discrepancies than you'd expect.

    I've read Applegate's work; ground breaking stuff for its day.
     
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  9. Steady Pie

    Steady Pie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    1. Magnum cartridges travel considerably faster, with heavier bullets, with much more energy.

    2. Less chance of misfire. Simple operation.

    3. 6 or 7 rounds are usually enough.

    4. For the criminal element, casings aren't ejected. Even helpful for handloading.

    5. Can shoot 44 special or 38 special for versatility.

    6. Usually heavier, less recoil.
     
  10. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Revolvers have some advantages.

    With keeping one chamber clear, they are very safe. They are a very simple weapon mechanically, and do not rely on any kind of recoil to load the next round. And because they can be almost infinitely larger and thicker in cylinder and barrel thickness you can fire anything from them.

    Semi-Autos can not really do any of those. But they have other advantages, like easier to fire additional rounds, faster reload, more rounds per load, and others.

    Ultimately, it all generally boils down to personal preference.
     
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  11. An Taibhse

    An Taibhse Well-Known Member

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    Most modern revolvers have transfer bars preventing a dropped one from inadvertaintly firing the round under the hammer and can be safely carried with every chamber loaded. It’s an easy thing to verify. There are a few with hammer notches on the cylinder that the hammer can be lowered onto which can also be carried safely.
    There have been revolvers on the market that are semi auto designs, several these days, the Brits fielded one that was used in WWII.
    Some revolvers are manufactured to be very robust and can’t handle high pressure loads like some of the Rugers, but some aren’t; it’s always best to check manufacturer recommendations and warnings. Also, some loads (double loads, under loads) can be out right dangerous or created dangerous conditions. Then too, unrecognized issues like cylinders being out of time can be dangerous as well. With full/Half moon clips, or other quick loader devices, revolvers can be as quick to load as any semi auto. Just check some of Jerry Miculek’s videos on YouTube.
    Yes, there are advantages of revolvers, just as with any fire arm, making a choice is not just personal preference, but a rational choice involving many considerations from intended use, level of competence, ergonomics, etc. ... a choice best made from knowledge not from general myth.
    Also, like any fire arm, understanding of the manual of arms, observing good maintenance practices, recognition of potential failures, building skill, and observing firearm safety rules is important.
    I have known of those that, in buying into myth, make poor choices for fit to purpose, ignore training, ignore maintenance, don’t inspect the tool for mechanical problems, become complacent, and a host of other things that ultimately endanger themselves and others.
    Books could be written, and have been, about the differences in fire arm types, actions, uses, advantages, limitations, etc. Nothing is more important with firearms than knowledge and if you don’t have knowledge, consult those that do...plenty happy/willing to advise.
     
  12. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    You're 50 years behind on your information about revolvers and the requirement to keep one chamber clear. Hence, we can ignore the rest you say.
     
  13. 6Gunner

    6Gunner Banned

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    I wouldn't be quite so quick to ignore. I've talked to a lot of people who have been brought up with "knowledge" that is no longer legitimate; but often all they need is someone willing to take the time to educate them and bring them up to speed. It depends on how willing they are to accept the education.

    I have run into some people who will say, "Oh, I didn't know that!" and others who sneer and dismiss what you're telling them because their brother's friend from the U.S. Coast Guard Delta Seals taught them all they need to know. THEM you can ignore. ;-)

    Of course, if I hear one more person proselytize about how it's "safer" to carry a 1911 with the hammer down on a live round....
     
  14. An Taibhse

    An Taibhse Well-Known Member

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    Education/knowledge is key and sometimes new knowledge, revelations can come from unlikely sources. While I teach, teaching also has led to considerable learning. I have also learned quite a bit from those with ‘old’ knowledge (like my Da who fought in WWII carrying and fighting with a Garand) who shared info on rapid reloading, topping up mags, maintenance, etc. he learned through experience. I enjoy interacting (sharing) with others that have experience and knowledge, in part, because I never discount I might learn something. My education never stops despite my 60 years of experience.
    One of my hobbies (now a retirement small business) has been building custom bamboo fly rods using the tapers and materials of the old masters. Though their builds are often considered outdated materials, techniques, taper theories, I find it amazing how their ‘outdated designs, methods and materials) often perform better than modern technology and find myself stumbling on new revelations revealed by why they did what they did. Keeps me engaged.
    Re: your 1911 comment... made me smile... yep. Lot’s of myth, sometime dangerous myth, out there.
     
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  15. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    I was speaking in the generic sense, in a way covering all of them. Of course that does not apply to all, I never said it did.

    I could also discuss the thumb safety and half-**** of the M1911, but I did not.

    Do not nitpick.
     
  16. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    I know of no modern revolvers that you can't load all chambers safely. It's not nitpicking, it's correcting a misconception. Pretty much any cartridge revolver made in the last 50 years is safe to load all chambers.
     
  17. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    And are all revolvers "modern"?

    Hell, the one revolver I have in my collection is a classic S&W Saturday Night Special. None of those fancy features, still works just fine. As does my Korean War era M1911.
     
  18. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    S&W made (and still makes) quality revolvers, not Saturday night specials by definition. So you have a pre-1915 S&W? That is when S&W introduced the hammer block, which makes it safe to fully load a revolver.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturday_night_special
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2019
  19. Xenamnes

    Xenamnes Banned

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    There are many that would ultimately disagree with such, based on present production.
     
  20. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    Regardless, S&W are not "Saturday Night Specials."
     
  21. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I own one of those old Ruger Blackhawks chambered for the .45 long Colt manufactured in 1970, there is no transfer bar.

    For some reason, they are worth more.
     
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  22. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    To me, it really does not matter. I made my point, then as always some just have to jump in and try to make claims that are not really realistic.

    Not everybody has modern weapons. Heck, I even had a replica Dueling Pistol until a few years ago when I sold it off. Black Powder baby, real old school.

    I was talking in general, not only towards those buying new weapons. And to all but the most wonky of fanbois such things really do not matter all that much. Hell, I have not bought a gun magazine in over 30 years, really have no interest any more. I used to get 3 or 4 a month (along with SOF and other such), now I can not see myself ever buying another one.

    And yes, I know you can reload a revolver as fast as a semi-auto pistol. But that skill requires more training, something very few not in law enforcement or armed security will ever do. I can teach anybody to reload an M1911 in 5 seconds, even a 75 year old with arthritis. And once familiar with one they can move that skill to another once they learn where the button or clip is. Revolvers, they can be a bit more involved. And for most, you reload in groups of 6, not 7+.

    Outside of the military, most of those I trained in use were women. And yes, I taught both revolver and semi, but most all preferred my old .380 single stack. They liked how it fit their hand, and it was easier for them to fire than a more traditional DA/SA revolver.
     
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  23. An Taibhse

    An Taibhse Well-Known Member

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    On the early ones, if I remember correctly, there is a notch on the trigger/hammer that will lift the hammer from laying flat on a loaded chamber, however, it would not completely prevent the hammer from engaging under some drop scenarios.
    You might consider contacting Ruger, they will do a conversion to a trigger bar configuration for free and also return the original parts. My experience, for a couple customers, with Ruger is, if you send a gun for that conversion, they will refresh the finish and replace any questionable/worn parts for free as well.
    I had one of their first .44mag Blackhawks...traded for one of their first RedHawks. Both excellent guns IMO. At one point, I had the RedHawk cut down to 3” and manga ported in the late 90’s by a smith in the AK for use in my annual fishing treks.
     
  24. An Taibhse

    An Taibhse Well-Known Member

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    Based on what I have observed, and I have observed quite a bit, few people carrying concealed for self defense bother to carry reloads; what is in the gun is what they have. Fewer yet, practice reloading under adversarial conditions.
    Helping someone choose a pistol is something I am tapped frequently to do. I don’t have a standard, one fits all, recommendation. There are a lot of factors to consider, among them, can a person perform the manual of arms (for instance...can they rack the slide of a semi auto), what fits their hands, will they train frequently, are they the type prone to panic, will they perform routine maintenance, and several more aspects of evaluation. Most ranges will rent guns, giving people several options when evaluating choices. I have one close friend, a 77 year old lady, perhaps 90lbs, that now has a K6 and she not only likes shooting it (P+.38), but is a reasonably competent shooter... better than many. She shot the one one of my girls carries and liked it.
    How much training a person is willing to engage in and how they train is a huge factor in my mind. Many train with different ammo, because of cost, than they carry for SD a potentially dangerous thing for many reasons. Many with DA/SA guns, fail to train to competency in DA. Few train to overcome potential problems, such as FTFs/FTEs in semi autos, squib loads, jammed cylinders in revolvers, etc., often seeing such problems as nuisances on the range, not training experiences.
    Then too, how Is the gun likely to be carried... IWB next to skin in humid conditions, loose in the pocket, at the bottom of a purse, round in chamber, etc.
    Choosing a gun can involve a lot of considerations prior to the choice, but many can also come after a choice is made.
     
  25. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I'm old schooled.

    I don't want the trigger bar on my Blackhawk.

    I'll just carry a with five rounds in the cylinder and having the hammer on an empty cylinder.
     
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