Would U rather live with the inherent dangers of freedom or the risk averse safety of subjugation?

Discussion in 'Member Casual Chat' started by Sahba*, Feb 7, 2019.

  1. Sahba*

    Sahba* Newly Registered

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    "I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery" is a translation of a Latin phrase that Thomas Jefferson used: "Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem." It has also been translated as, "I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude."

    Jefferson used the Latin phrase in the following letter to James Madison:
    https://www.monticello.org/site/jefferson/i-prefer-dangerous-freedom-over-peaceful-slavery-quotation

    If one were to distill the platitudinous BS within the two viable party platforms, this stark divide should be crystallized somewhere in the dross.

    - Is the mantra of 'if it saves even one life' - worth relinquishing personal freedoms & constitutional rights for?
    - is the price of liberty, freedom & independence worth the risk of trusting your fellow man with your very life; based upon the assumed guiding morality of their conscience. Should we have the personal grit & determination to stand up for ourselves & 'ours' without the enveloping, omnipresence of governance? (your thoughts)
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2019
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  2. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    I’ll give you a slightly cryptic answer to your thread title.
    California in the early 1800’s would have been right up my alley. Today, even thought I’d like to see the redwoods again I’ll never go back.

    No.
    I would prefer my fellow man was guided by a moral conscience. Sadly our society has moved on to more sophisticated rudders. If one of these steers your vessel too close to my island you may find a gaping hole in your hull, in no part attributable to government! :)

    Ps. This would be a great subject for the opinions and beliefs section too.
     
  3. Sahba*

    Sahba* Newly Registered

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    Yes, the OP wasn't put together re. the latter point there. Let me take another stab at it.

    - Is the price of liberty, freedom & independence worth the risk & effort of securing it self sufficiently & corporately with like minded compatriots, friends and family; utilizing the intellect, tools & force that is required.
     
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  4. Hotdogr

    Hotdogr Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This country was not founded to make people safe, it was founded to make them free.
     
  5. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Oh yes it’s worth it. I fear there may be some considerable inflation of the price ahead, however.
     
  6. Hotdogr

    Hotdogr Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    At the core of the question is the gradual migration towards a nanny government, driven by government itself. The people have been convinced that they need government to protect us from each other and ourselves, when the truth is, we need to work with each other to protect us from overreaching government. As long as they can keep us divided amongst ourselves, they can be sure that we will not unite against them... and they work very hard to do that. As long as they can maintain the roleplay of being a neutral referee between feuding neighbors (while behind the scenes continuously stoking the fires of the feud) they can avoid the tar and feathers on election day and guarantee themselves continued prosperity at the expense of us all.

    We see this in the devolution of the caliber of politician whom we elect to office. A continuing downward spiral from the founders. Not one, this century or last, that even approaches the caliber of Thomas Jefferson. Why is that? Because decent people do not want to be associated with politics. And those who do, are quickly overcome by the fumes and end up just like the rest.

    I seriously suspect that our continuous interferance with natural selection is causing the stupid to outbreed and extinct the brilliant.
     
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  7. Blaster3

    Blaster3 Well-Known Member

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    this is where 'dilution' of the population comes in... the more that come from oppressive nations the more that want those 'protections'... the heresy of the 'immigration reform' is prevalent in both parties, when 'it' gets bad enough the majority will be yelling for more governance which will impose restrictions upon the lower classes...

    take a look at the current situation in hawaii & the proposed HB1509 eliminating cigarette sales to anyone under 100 years old... although this might seem lucid/harmless on it's face, the dems there actually are imposing this upon the lower working classes...

    here's the bill: https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/session2019/bills/HB1509_.HTM

    here's the exclusions:
    upload_2019-2-8_8-45-13.png

    this is just a small sample of how they plan to increase control over the 'population'...
     
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  8. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Donor

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    It's not really a question of freedom vs. security, it's dependent on the society you are currently in.

    Where we live today most of us would choose freedom and any system that provides that for us but supposed we were to board spacecraft and set out to colonize a new planet?

    You would definitely want to give up some freedom for security in that situation.

    So neither is right or wrong but rather they are situational.
     
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  9. Sahba*

    Sahba* Newly Registered

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    Tks Spooky (back to earth though, lol)

    How about under a 'Di Feinsteinian' curtailed 2nd A legislative change - with the likely societal & governmental landscape that we'd perhaps have after 8 yr's of Kamala, or her ilk's presidency? Let's say also that U were in suburban environs... a few mi. from the urban & a few mi. from the rural - what are your thoughts then?
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
  10. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Donor

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    That is a specific situation.

    Are you asking for a real world situation that would require security over freedom?
     
  11. Sahba*

    Sahba* Newly Registered

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    Probably way too far into the weeds already. How about stepping back to the basic philosophies / criterion / freedoms that are likely to produce the 'most' / 'greatest degree' of safety to society in general. Dido for a specific regional cross sections of society (urban suburban rural etc). Subsets etc. No, an assumed melting pot yes... Or whatever people care to share about any aspect of engendering safety within their society.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
  12. Blaster3

    Blaster3 Well-Known Member

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    hence differing rules within big cities as opposed to suburbia & rural areas...

    the 'forefathers' got it correct with the electoral college & individual state rights to govern themselves... can't have one rule the others even if they outnumber them...
     
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  13. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Well-Known Member

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    Funny thing, righties like to claim lefties want security. But it is the other way around. Conservatives tend to value security most, and liberals value liberty. This gets twisted with the nanny law complex and the gun issue. But if you look at trump as a perfectly horrible example of this, he appealed to fear and xenophobia to get elected. More guns, bigger armies, more missiles, a huge wall 2500 miles long, righties are all about fear and security.

    As for control, who wants to control your actions in the bedroom, what you do with your body, and even the right to end perpetual and hopeless suffering for the terminally ill? Liberals want to be a nanny. Righties want to control the most essential and personal aspects of a person's life.

    And this doesn't even get into the whole righty religious fanaticism problem. There are plenty of people who cry out in fear that the US is going to be run by Sharia Law one day, all while arguing that we should all have to abide by their religious beliefs.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019 at 10:32 AM
  14. Chester_Murphy

    Chester_Murphy Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This.
     
  15. Blaster3

    Blaster3 Well-Known Member

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    trump didnt have to 'appeal' to anything, the simple fact that he wasn't a career politician was & is enough... the dnc swampers need to go, so do majority of the other 'swampers' aka career thieves of dc...
     
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  16. Chester_Murphy

    Chester_Murphy Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    But, it's a little twisted thinking, too. As in:
    Nannies are for the care and protection of children unable to think for themselves and make healthy decisions. They don't make laws that cannot be broken nor changed. Nannies follow rules set by the children's guardians. It's level upon level of control with consequences for when we don't do what the nannies require. That, in and of itself is taking away all liberty of an adult citizen. It is done by passing laws which curtail and remove liberties, and perpetuate the thought that most adults have no business making their own decisions and their opinions should be ignored.

    Plus, what is most essential and personal? The right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are. If all are to have the same freedom, we don't get to choose who will be allowed to receive those rights, because we have not given them to anyone. They are inherent to all human beings. Yes, we have, as fallible humans, stripped some of those rights in the past. However, it is modern day with the left thinking they know what is best for all. Do they?

    Isn't the safest bet to allow those freedoms to all? You see, the thinking of these folks is not open enough to consider those who have no voice. Their choices are made for them.

    Hence, the nanny. Loving and kind as Cinderella's stepmother. Yes, there was a political element to the folk tale.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019 at 10:52 AM
  17. Blaster3

    Blaster3 Well-Known Member

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    the issue with dilution of the population is that many of these folks refuse to accept american values, they come for the american dream, once here they lobby for regulations that make them feel at home from their own country... absurd, considering thats why they left there in the first place...

    i'm all for offering up the oppertunity to be free, but i'm wholeheartedly against deluting america to the point it no longer exists...

    come here, we welcome you, but dont try to change us, lest you forget that is why you came here, because of who we are...
     
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  18. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member

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    Dangerous freedom.

    I do enjoy the prosperity that results from a minimal amount of order that allows society to function efficiently, such that would not exist were murder and theft unrestricted, however I see no benefit to being coerced into wearing a seatbelt or risking prison by owning the wrong species of vegetation or a firearm made in the wrong country.

    We could certainly have less laws and bureaucracy and still prosper.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019 at 11:13 AM
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  19. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Please stab away.

    Yes, I agree that the price of freedom is well worth whatever consequences you might suffer. That's why I've been self employed for most of my life even though it would probably have been more secure & profitable to have a "real job".

    While I'm semi-retired now, served in the US Military, bummed around the world and had numerous vocations along the way, I've been a blacksmith (some people say "artist") for the last 25 years & had the freedom to design & make everything from wrought iron gates, fireplace tools, African animals, organic table bases with wrought iron grape vines, Art Deco Wine racks and pretty much everything from cannons to napkin rings.

    While I've enjoyed the freedom to chose my clients & use my own designs, I couldn't have enjoyed these freedoms without the aid of, as you say: "...like minded compatriots, friends and family..."

    Thanks,
     
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  20. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member

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    I summered at an ornamental iron fence and railing shop in high school. I just drilled and mig welded things. The ornamental guy was the shop owner's dad from eastern europe. He spoke not a word of english and chainsmoked cigars which he lit with the aceteline torch while he forged various designs for us to weld together. He refused to wear any eye protection. He joked a lot, though I could only tell they were jokes because he almost always laughed after saying whatever he said to me.
     
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