Would we choose vaccine passports?

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by LangleyMan, May 5, 2021.

  1. FAW

    FAW Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2008
    Messages:
    8,138
    Likes Received:
    1,826
    Trophy Points:
    113
    What you mention is definitely a gray area. If it were me, and I had the virus a year ago, I would opt to get the vaccine in the realistic hope that it would lengthen my protection. If I had the virus a month ago, I would probably wait a while for fear of having a very adverse reaction due to the strong immune response.

    With that being said, that is just my opinion. I do happen to work in medical sales, and I have in passing discussed this topic with several doctors. They do not all have the same opinion.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2021
    21Bronco likes this.
  2. Tejas

    Tejas Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2021
    Messages:
    3,437
    Likes Received:
    1,233
    Trophy Points:
    113

    Sounds like a "there's a sucker born every minute" hoax worthy of P. T. Barnum

    .
     
  3. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2013
    Messages:
    89,511
    Likes Received:
    12,858
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yes and now that all the legitimate medical organizations say the vaccine is effective, the Liberals love it and Conservatives hate it.
     
  4. FAW

    FAW Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2008
    Messages:
    8,138
    Likes Received:
    1,826
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The vaccine was never going to be available until the legitimate medical organization (FDA) determined it was safe and effective. Trump never had the ability to circumvent the FDA in any manner. That did not stop Biden from sowing doubt when doing so suited him politically.

    That gate swings both ways, but some only see it when it swings in one direction.

    It is incorrect to say that one side of the political spectrum loves it and the other side hates it. The anti covid vax people come from all political stripes and demographic groups. There may be more from the right side at this point, but they arent leading by that much. It is fairly close.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2021
  5. Burzmali

    Burzmali Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2009
    Messages:
    6,193
    Likes Received:
    2,314
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I know someone had suggested paying folks to get the vaccine late last year. I wish they would have gone through with it. I say give them $100 for each dose, or $200 if they get the J&J vaccine. And make it cash right then and there. No debit cards, no tax credit, just walk in for you appointment, get a jab, "would you like 20s or a 100 bill?"
     
  6. Moonglow

    Moonglow Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2013
    Messages:
    18,289
    Likes Received:
    6,676
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    The massage parlor says I get a discount if I show my filled vaccine card..Mask and collars are optional..
     
    Sallyally likes this.
  7. Burzmali

    Burzmali Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2009
    Messages:
    6,193
    Likes Received:
    2,314
    Trophy Points:
    113
    They bashed him for indicating he was willing to push a vaccine out at any cost, regardless of it's safety or effectiveness. Prominent libs were saying they'd take it as long as experts okayed it, as opposed to if it just being pushed by Trump and his sycophants.
     
  8. 21Bronco

    21Bronco Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2020
    Messages:
    15,627
    Likes Received:
    9,277
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Where did Trump say that? Got a quote?
     
  9. Burzmali

    Burzmali Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2009
    Messages:
    6,193
    Likes Received:
    2,314
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I said he indicated it, not straight up said it. Here's a repeat of something I've posted about it before:

     
    Last edited: May 6, 2021
    bigfella likes this.
  10. 21Bronco

    21Bronco Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2020
    Messages:
    15,627
    Likes Received:
    9,277
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    The only thing in your post relevant to your claim is the claim that Trump "tried to block FDA guidelines" on determining the safety.

    Biden's now taking credit for the FDA actually relaxing their guidelines. Oh the irony.

     
    Last edited: May 6, 2021
  11. Burzmali

    Burzmali Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2009
    Messages:
    6,193
    Likes Received:
    2,314
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You don't think it's relevant that he was putting pressure on them for development and testing, too? Or that he had a demonstrated history of lying to make himself look better?

    Your quote doesn't indicate anything about authorization or safety guidelines. Biden was refering to production, acquisition, and distribution, as far as I recall. Regardless, two of the vaccines were already authorized before Biden took office. No guidelines were changed for the J&J vaccine authorization, either, so I don't know what you're trying to get at.
     
    bigfella likes this.
  12. 21Bronco

    21Bronco Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2020
    Messages:
    15,627
    Likes Received:
    9,277
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Biden would have pressured them, too. Let's not pretend here. Or his people would. He would have forgotten there was a vaccine if not for his daily reminders.

    Further testing would have delayed the vaccine. Biden's taken credit for rolling out more of it faster. The connection is fairly obvious. If Biden were consistent, he'd slow down the rollout until further testing was done.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2021
  13. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2017
    Messages:
    29,727
    Likes Received:
    8,234
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    As long as some people didn't have access to vaccines, there was an strong incentive for government to mandate masks to keep new case counts lower.
    Vaccinated people can and have been reinfected, but the numbers are relatively small. You're far better off if you have taken the vaccine. I'm not a Fauci fan because he lied about the value of respirators.
    It does work, of that there is no doubt. As soon as the new infection rate comes down, they should open up more.
    Huh?
    Trump lost the election because he screwed up covid.

    92B0F253-588C-4BA2-8481-9210C0233387.jpeg

    Pols can't afford to let hospitals get overrun by covid.
    Masks cut transmission. Respirators like this...

    95E755B6-C907-47CF-A32F-E1A32994B270.jpeg

    ... are what staff wear in covid wards. If effective gear like this was available widely, covid could be stooped in its tracks.
     
  14. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2017
    Messages:
    29,727
    Likes Received:
    8,234
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    My wife and I had the same GP for 30+ years. He never had to call either of us with reminders, so it didn't come to mind as the mechanism to deliver the message.

    I wonder what it would take to get the numbers up in some red states.
     
  15. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2017
    Messages:
    29,727
    Likes Received:
    8,234
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    The evidence the vaccines approved here so far are safe and effective. I don't know why you would think otherwise.
     
  16. Tejas

    Tejas Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2021
    Messages:
    3,437
    Likes Received:
    1,233
    Trophy Points:
    113

    I don't take any vaccines.

    And the fact that there have been so many different kinds of serious side effects doesn't help persuade me

    .
     
  17. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2017
    Messages:
    29,727
    Likes Received:
    8,234
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Warranted or not, demand for vaccinated-only events, businesses, venues, services, etc. exists. I suspect demand will vary with the level of virus circulating in the community.
     
  18. Cybred

    Cybred Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2020
    Messages:
    6,099
    Likes Received:
    2,391
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    How else can you prove your vaccinated?
     
  19. MJ Davies

    MJ Davies Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2020
    Messages:
    13,116
    Likes Received:
    12,536
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I found it to be a bit melodramatic myself.
     
  20. MJ Davies

    MJ Davies Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2020
    Messages:
    13,116
    Likes Received:
    12,536
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I was just reading about sporting events having segregated seating for vaccinated and unvaccinated.

    I'm curious how useful/effective a passport would be since the variants are already here.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2021
  21. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2020
    Messages:
    8,537
    Likes Received:
    7,425
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Sorry, I'm not mistaken. Not at all. There is a bit of latency between the virus entering the cells of the respiratory mucosa (where it does replicate), and the secondary immune response. The lag phase lasts 2 days depending on circumstances (more on this, below) but can be up to 3 to 4 days until the memory cells are activated and the production of antibodies goes into overdrive, and the pathogen is eliminated.

    Sorry, but I just CAN'T be mistaken in the areas of immunology and virology, because that's what I do for a living, for the last 40 years, with two doctoral degrees.

    Here, let me give you a more complete explanation, this time.

    There are two situations in play.

    One, someone with a huge titer of neutralizing antibodies, active, fresh, of the kind that hasn't faded yet. If the person gets a whiff of the virus, that virus won't stand a chance. As soon as the virus gets in, it will be flooded with antibodies and neutralized. It won't replicate. It won't even get inside the cells to replicate. The odds that this person will be a carrier with enough viral load and shedding to pass the infection on to others are pretty much zero. In a sense, we can say that the person didn't even get infected, although it wouldn't be entirely true to say so, if by infection we understand even the slightest and most transient presence of the virus. But if we adopt a more clinical, less strict view, I'd say that the person didn't get "infected." That's what is know as sterilizing immunity.

    Two, someone whose circulating antibodies have faded (after some time went by since natural infection or vaccination). If that person gets a good dose of the virus, that person will indeed become infected. The virus will both circulate, and will get into some cells and will replicate. But that's when macrophages will gobble up circulating viruses and will present the virus to helper T cells that will get activated, and the activated T cells will proliferate into two types: TH1 cells which secrete cytokines that in their turn activate killer (cytotoxic) T cells that will recognize and kill infected host cells, and TH2 which will communicate with circulating B cells which will then become antibody-producing plasma cells (a.k.a. effector B cells). NOW the plasma cells with make neutralizing antibodies, and the host will kill and clear the virus.

    This process when it occurs for the first time (when the person first gets the virus or first gets the vaccine), is what is called a primary immune response, and it can take weeks. From the remnants of that response, some B cells become lasting memory B cells and reside in the bone marrow and elsewhere (spleen, tonsils, lymph nodes).

    When either the natural infection or the vaccine has created memory B cells, the reaction to a subsequent encounter with the virus is called a secondary immune response and it is a lot faster (and stronger); a couple of days (up to 3 or 4) for the activated B cells to differentiate into plasma cells and restart antibody production.

    Now, what is variable is a vaccine's immunogenicity, as well as the proficiency of the host's immune system, and the degree to which the host possesses circulating or strategically positioned B cells, and develops lasting memory B cells.

    This is why these vaccines are not 100% protective. They will stimulate the immune system to different degrees, and different people will have a more or less robust response.

    So, let's say there was vaccination but with a somewhat pale response (say, because the person is old and infirm - older people have fewer circulating B cells, or the person is using medications that blunt cellular response, or has variable levels of stress and variable immune proficiency, etc.). That person may still benefit from the vaccine... catch the virus, which will reproduce some, and cause, say, mild or moderate disease. The person will then still mount a sufficient defense as above and will clear the virus. But that person may have been a carrier for a while and may have had a sufficient viral load and sufficient viral shedding to pass the virus on to others.

    Which is why you see numbers such as 62% efficacy for a vaccine, 86% for another one, 95% for another one... These vaccines will be better or worse at creating a humoral response and a cellular response. So, some vaccines will get close to eliminating the possibility of all infection, some others not as much. And some people will have robust immune systems that will produce big and lasting neutralizing titers after vaccination, while others not as much.

    How do B memory cells get formed? Unknown, to a degree. There are hypothesis of random creation, others say it's cytokine mediated, others say that paradoxically the B cells with the least affinity for the antigen will become B memory cells while the ones with the most affinity will become plasma cells.

    The bottom line is, it's variable. A viral infection or vaccination doesn't necessarily produce B memory cells. Or if it does, they may not survive. When they do survive and are distributed through lymph nodes that watch entry points, yes, they can react fast. But it's not a given that they are there, alive and ready.

    If they are not there but memory T cells are, then it will take longer to mount a defense, up to a few days.

    Get it now?
     
    LangleyMan likes this.
  22. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2020
    Messages:
    8,537
    Likes Received:
    7,425
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    No, they do not all have the same opinion, because they aren't, like me, not only a clinician, but also a medical scientist (MD/PhD). I've seen many colleagues who are misguided about it. Trust an immunologist/virologist more than your run-of-the-mill frontline clinician.

    Vaccination is advisable even for people who have had the natural infection, period. And no, don't wait more than a month. And no, there hasn't been any evidence that the people previously infected with the natural virus are at a bigger risk for damaging adverse reactions when they get vaccinated.

    Vaccination especially with an mRNA vaccine confers better immunity than the natural infection with the ancestral strains, especially in view of the new variants.

    Here, read this:

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.04.15.440089v2
     
    LangleyMan likes this.
  23. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2020
    Messages:
    8,537
    Likes Received:
    7,425
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Yes. That's one of the points I made in post #2 of this very thread.
    Vaccine passports are not a guarantee of immunity. Post #96 explains why it's variable.
     
  24. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2017
    Messages:
    29,727
    Likes Received:
    8,234
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Yes, and...? Polio vaccines are extremely effective. Why don't you take them?
    Serious side effects of the mRNA covid vaccines, Moderna and Pfizer, are very rare. There are worse chances you run with some medicines.
     
    CenterField likes this.
  25. MJ Davies

    MJ Davies Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2020
    Messages:
    13,116
    Likes Received:
    12,536
    Trophy Points:
    113
    So, what value do they have?
     

Share This Page