You Are an Ape

Discussion in 'Science' started by ChiCowboy, Sep 9, 2021.

  1. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    I said as if. Neither is it faith to observe that nature has neither conscience nor free will as does man. Yet nature remains in its course and place. Just like the Judeo/Christian doctrine of creation. In fact, that it is now observable one may as well call it a modern doctrine as well as an old one.
     
  2. ChiCowboy

    ChiCowboy Well-Known Member

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    Makes no sense. Humans are part of nature. Free will is an illusion, which is shared by all hominids. Indeed, you prove yourself an ape.
     
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  3. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    That makes no sense. But you know that. We are physical. But unlike the remainder of nature we have a conscience to know right from wrong. And the free will or power of choice to choose one or the other. Nature has no such endowment. It is bound like an oath to abide its design.
     
  4. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    This trait has been found in other animals than just humans.

    It's true that it's more well developed in humans. But, you can't just draw a line like you want to do (for some unknown reason).
     
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  5. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    That's wishful thinking. You can't transfer human conscience and choice between good and evil to the conduct of anything in nature.
     
  6. Cougarbear

    Cougarbear Well-Known Member

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    Noting lazier than accepting bogus crap from evolutionists. Your response suggests that you know I'm right. Thank you... :rock_slayer:
     
  7. ChiCowboy

    ChiCowboy Well-Known Member

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    Childish.
     
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  8. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    Humans have always liked to preserve their lives, history, stories and traditions, either orally or in writing. One would think that five or six thousand years ago, if there were knowledge of an even more distant history, that someone would have have made mention of their apish ancestors, were it true.
    [​IMG]
     
  9. ChiCowboy

    ChiCowboy Well-Known Member

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    My god. We're talking hundreds of thousands and millions of years.

    The earliest phonetic writing is Egyptian which is a little over 5000 years old. Oral traditions aren't a whole lot older.

    Furthermore, populations evolve, not individuals. That destroys your argument, but I don't expect you to understand it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2021
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  10. LiveUninhibited

    LiveUninhibited Well-Known Member

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    Um no it doesn't require faith at all. Evolution's validity doesn't hinge on it, but I've seen plausible models that rely on the simple fact that fatty acids spontaneously form compartments (micelles, like cells) in solution, e.g. This separation from the random outside world is all that's really required to get things started. It doesn't require some kind of miracle for that to evolve into simple cells, only chemistry. But that chemistry, and the timescales involved, is difficult to reproduce in a lab.

    Do we really know that? All we know is that if we look at our own solar system, it looks like the life that lives on earth wouldn't do well elsewhere. This is n=1 stuff though, actually not even that. Of course life on Earth is adapted to Earth. Within our own solar system we don't even know if Europa has life or if Mars used to have life yet. We know many, many other planets exist elsewhere but we know very little about them. Just too early to come to this conclusion is all. Maybe you're right, but we don't know. Life probably requires liquid water or a similar solvent; it probably requires carbon or something like it chemically; it definitely requires an energy source. Not everywhere, but not rare either. Astronomers like to obsess over the right distance from the star, but that's short-sighted too because not all energy must come from a star.
     
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  11. ChiCowboy

    ChiCowboy Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. I've read some theories concerning this. For all we know, there may be other forms of "life," which don't fit any of our definitions.
     
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  12. Cosmo

    Cosmo Well-Known Member

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    Exactly, our concept of alien life is too Earth-centric.
     
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  13. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Regarding 'it doesnt require faith'... Do you have complete trust or confidence that abiogenesis accurately describes how life came to be? If not, what do you find is a suitably plausible alternative?
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2021
  14. Cougarbear

    Cougarbear Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I think your comment was and that is why I responded in the way I did. Did you like it? If not, then why did you do it to me? :dual:
     
  15. Cosmo

    Cosmo Well-Known Member

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    Primatology says otherwise.
    Consciousness and self-awareness are also present in other great apes.They have a sense of right and wrong and are capable of making cognitive decisions. Their feelings of empathy and expectations of reciprocity are essential behaviors for mammalian group living and can be regarded as a counterpart of human morality,which is a product of evolution.
     
  16. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    No, I understand what I'm asking. We don't have any earlier history than that. Your evolutionary man surely had language at some point, even drawings. Are you saying that all of a sudden modern history began five thousand years ago. What about up to that point. And why is there no mention whatsoever by these clearly intelligent people of evolution, cave men, apes or anything before them. How scientific is it to lose ourselves in the wondrousness of hundreds of thousands of years of transformation from something to ape to cave men to man. And then say there's no mention of it because it's too wondrous to perceive, comprehend, jot down or pass down at any point during such an incredible process of evolution by the very people in the grip of it. And when I asked why someone didn't make note of it, I meant those in every population and space in time who are more inclined to do so, to reflect, to gather stories and such.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2021
  17. LiveUninhibited

    LiveUninhibited Well-Known Member

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    I can't think of a reasonable alternative, except with regards to the specifics of how abiogenesis occurs. Somebody could claim aliens planted life on Earth, but that would still be the same problem with the origin of those aliens. I'd call abiogenesis the only reasonable hypothesis that I have. It's a step or two above "I have no idea and need to get comfortable with that limitation," which is where I am when it comes to the existence of souls. I do find it a bit ridiculous to lean on unsupported deities to try to explain things I don't understand but want to, and that's where I am with gods.
     
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  18. ChiCowboy

    ChiCowboy Well-Known Member

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    You misunderstand evolution. Not to be snarky, but I didn't expect you to understand.

    At any given time, individuals in a population are similar. It's the population that evolves, over eons and eons.

    The point is that you are an ape, whether you like it or not.
     
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  19. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Correct. A good book that explains this is called Cradle of Life. They can argue the comical claim man is an ape all day long but they still do not understand abiogenesis at all.

    [​IMG]
     
  20. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Looks like you stepped up to be an ape. I don't know why but do not care.
     
  21. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Actually that's exactly what it is. Seeds blown around by winds don't take root in your concrete driveway, but they will take hold in a small patch of decaying leaf litter in your roof gutters. That's the 'chance' of a few favourable conditions coinciding. Just because they're less common than unfavourable conditions, doesn't add anything at all to the weight of design arguments. It's a numbers game, in the end.
     
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  22. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    But it does. Any additional 'understanding' we want is a function of our sentience and ego. We also seek patterns .. and this stuff doesn't offer patterns.
     
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  23. Cosmo

    Cosmo Well-Known Member

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    Evolutionary theory is a theory arising from biology, and its remit consists of explaining the observed diversity of the biosphere once living organisms exist.The origin of life is a separate question, and one which is covered by the theory of naturalistic abiogenesis, which is a theory arising from a different scientific discipline, namely organic chemistry.
     
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  24. ChiCowboy

    ChiCowboy Well-Known Member

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    You care enough to make a personal attack. Mindless post.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2021
  25. CKW

    CKW Well-Known Member

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    Life is anything but random. Random is what you find in space...all the element of earth with no plan. The building block basics of water and soil...reusable and renewable is amazing on its own. I'm even amazed at the wonder of a scab...nature's bandaid protecting the wound as tissue grows underneath.. Too many amazing things in total sync to label it all "random".
     

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