You cannot have it both ways

I've seen a kind of dual thinking in Christians of various denominations.

Some Christians will say that their religion/relationship with God saved them from lives of addiction, violence, lust, depression and anxiety. They think that the solution that worked for them will work for everybody and it's the ONLY solution.

Then when some atheists/free thinking people point out that they too have lives of happiness and full of meaning, they revert to something like "You won't be happy when you're dead". Well yeah... when I'm dead I'm gone, but which one is it? Do you live to find happiness and peace of mind NOW or live a life of hardship for some eternal reward? You cannot have it both ways.

Two examples: two ex-Jehovah's Witnesses said in a Youtube video how happy they are after leaving the cult and one JW then says "Enjoy that happiness now because Jehovah will soon destroy you"

I said to a Roman Catholic that my father is happier out of the church than in and he responded with "You and your Dad won't be happy when you're dead"

Another issue: A filmmaker travelled to Uganda to document the anti-homosexual laws there. He talked to a group of students about how in Europe and the United States, homosexuals are not locked away to which one student suggested God will destroy those nations with natural disasters.

Which one is it? Does Yahweh send his human Christian soldiers to lock away the sinners, or does he do his own dirty work? Again, you cannot have it both ways.

 

Good points you make. Either God intervenes directly in the affairs of Humans - or God does not. If God does intervene - he should have done so long ago .. as the Evil of Man did not just crop up over the last few years.

 

If misfortune happens to a "bad" person (people are just people), it's the consequences of their actions AND it's Yahweh striking down the sinner. If something good happens to a bad person, It's supposedly their treasure and they will not obtain the REAL treasure on the other side.

If misfortune happens to a "good" person, it's Yahweh testing them, it's Yahweh punishing them for some unknown or unintentional backsliding on the rules, Yahweh will bring something good out of something bad, or the "good" person is not placing enough value in "spiritual" things and more on material things. If something good happens to a good person, it's Yahweh's providence smiling down at him and maybe also Yahweh helping someone who helps themselves.

There is an excuse for any situation.

 

Nobody has come back from the dead to verify what happens after the body dies. That's just stuff people tell themselves so they aren't so terrified of dying. It also helps them avoid taking personal responsibility for their choices.

Why would anybody sane want to worship somebody that makes a bunch of kids and holds hell over them all the time? Guess what? My kids mess up. We learn from it and move on. I don't banish them into a blazing inferno for it. I've never yelled at or hit my kids. I've never been angry with them. Not once. I had two crazy human parents that beat me for sport. Why would I want to live with one of those monsters for all eternity later? No thanks.

 

You have a solid point.
Here's the other 'dual standard' that strikes me as equally silly. Its when anti-theists blame Christianity for the harm Christians do in the name of the faith, but don't give Christianity any credit for the good Christians do in the name of the faith. When some Christians argue for war, intolerance, and the support of tyranny and they quote scripture to do it, then the religion gets the hit . When other Christians argue for peace, tolerance, or social/political reform and they quote scripture to do it, then the faith gets no credit at all. It happens all the time.

 

Correct. Religion is just religion for better or worse. If religion is not used to control people, it should be something people use to find happiness and peace of mind in this life. Just don't look through the scriptures and expect to find a recipe to build some kind of Utopia.

 

"The Smoking Gun" - Stories of Jesus returning from the dead "In the Flesh". The so called "Physical Ressurection" as opposed to a "Spiritual Ressurrection"

What can we say about this ? - The earliest stories of Jesus do not have a Physical Resurrection. The first and earliest Gospel - Mark- has no physical resurrection - the story ends with an empty tomb - an angel stating Jesus has gone - the reader left to guess what happened ,, the "Long Ending" added hundreds of years later - in one of many acts of Pious Fraud.

So at this point 65 AD -Mark, to when Matt was written 80-100 AD - we have no evidence of belief in a physical resurrection.

What about Paul ? Paul likens the appearances of Jesus to his Vision - a voice in the clouds - an apparition in the clouds - like sightings of the virgin mary - .. be these real apparitions or otherwise - this is not a Physical Resurrection being described by Paul. Paul dies around 65 AD.

95 AD - Clement - the "First Pope"/ high bishop of "The Church" writes a letter to the Corinthians -trying to convince them that the resurrection is real

1Clem 24:1
Let us understand, dearly beloved, how the Master continually
showeth unto us the resurrection that shall be hereafter; whereof He
made the Lord Jesus Christ the firstfruit, when He raised Him from
the dead.

1Clem 24:2
Let us behold, dearly beloved, the resurrection which happeneth at
its proper season.

You tell me what clement is referring to ? Sounds a whole lot like a resurrection as promised by Jesus, but a "Spiritual" one. - Clement makes no mention of the Stories in Matt - Luke- John -- no mention about Jesus wandering around the earth in the Flesh after his crucifixion.

Continued ...

 

God gives us our "Moral Agency" to choose good or evil. We are to help others to know what is good and what is evil and let them decide for themselves what they will choose. God only interferes when a person, nation or the world has no moral choice anymore. As examples"
1. For a person, he God will send the Holy Ghost to comfort, testify and teach a person who is making difficult choices. Other than that, we have the Light of Christ or in other words, our conscience.
2. For a country or group of people, he will inspire influential people that will make a difference if they need that help. The Bible has many examples of the Lord helping Israel. Also, Sodom and Gomorrah is an example of where two cities had lost their ability to choose good or evil as they became pure evil. God interfered with a form of nuclear bombs. Today, our Constitution was inspired of God.
3. For the entire world, the people in Noah's time became pure evil and had no opportunity to choose good or evil. God interfered with the flood.

"Do you live to find happiness and peace of mind NOW or live a life of hardship for some eternal reward? You cannot have it both ways." Christians don't go around hoping for a miserable life now for the opportunity for life eternal happiness. Where do you get that idea from? Our goal should be to live a Christ-like life helping those around us and our families the best we can while teaching them the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We hope that we do our very best and live eternally with the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. You have some screwed up understandings of Christianity.

 

Okay, but but what does it matter? Seems to me like you have a double standard of your own going on. If you don't believe what they believe then why does their beliefs about something you don't believe in matter to you? You aren't "free-thinking" if your thinking is affected by theirs.

 

What they believe does not matter to me. Only to point out flaws in other people's thinking to help them to come to a more realistic conclusion of their reality. It's doing the theist a favor.

This question comes back to "You certainly spend a lot of time talking about a God you do not believe in". I often hear Christian apologists say this to vocal atheists.

There are 2 answers to this assertion: 1. Most atheist activists were born into religious households where they believe they have been lied to for many years. Activism promotes critical thinking skills to help the religiously indoctrinated wake up. 2. Many atheists believe that religious fundamentalists want to hijack governments and do things like restrict life opportunities for women or ban alcohol.

I myself am not an atheist (anymore), but I can understand what motivates atheist activism.

 

If the religious kept their religion to themselves and didn't use it to push policy that affects atheists, then atheists would have far less need or motivation to speak out against religion.

I have not heard much atheist speech against the Amish. It's usually against Christians (and Muslims) who push policy on the atheists.

 

Fundamentalist Quarterback Tim Tibow is a good example. Scores a Touch down and is on his knees "Praise Jesus"

What you don't see is him cursing out Jesus when he gets intercepted

 

Just to be clear about something; you CAN be happy and a Christian, but you cannot say that happiness only matters or means something when you are in Christianity. Because I can be unhappy in Christianity sitting in church pews on a Saturday or Sunday when I'd rather be at home playing computer and video games or watching Netflix or going out on a hike. I'd also be very miserable with the knowledge of that salvation is denied to millions including people I'm rather fond of.

 

This mental discomfort can be minimized if you decide they deserve it for not thinking as you do. It also helps to chant a little and sing some songs.

 

Actually.. if more Christians understood the implications of Isaiah chapter forty five they would not be so shocked to find out that Atheists can have exceptionally positive Life Reviews during a near death experience.



An Analysis of the Near-Death Experiences of Atheists
BY KEVIN WILLIAMSPOSTED ON SEPTEMBER 24, 2019

 

Why not?

You're presenting a false dichotomy. God might decide to punish someone now and later. He may choose to do it himself and use someone else.

The god of the Bible doesn't have the limitations you present.

Those who study the Bible instead of simply repeating dogma realize that although God does directly and indirectly intervene, for the most part, slavery to sin is its own punishment.

Those enslaved to sin will generally insist that they are not enslaved to sin. Pretty skinny young woman will walk up and offer a blowjob for $10. She is obviously addicted to meth. I tell her I hope she gets better. She insists that meth is not controlling her life and she can quit whenever she wants. Other types of sin may cause damage to others. Many times people will insist that no possible damage is occurring due to their sin. Sometimes the end results take time and the damage is not seen until far later.

Regardless, Jesus lets people choose their own path. If someone chooses not to follow Jesus and make him Lord, Jesus won't do anything. You are welcome to follow your own path to its inevitable conclusion - death.

 

Everything dies, even stars and whole galaxies.

 

Excellent!

 

Christians vote based on values and priorities. Atheists do the same. Either category has to deal with policies that go against their values.

I'm not sure...but I don't think the Amish vote. Which I'm sure makes you happy but all citizens in this country have the right to vote for policies they deem best for this country.

 

And?

 

I am Christian because I am hooked. And not for the sake of this life or for eternity. I love and honor our Heavenly Father because he loved me first and condescended to visit me with his spirit and grant me the greatest privilege of remembering him. I live in astonishment of his divinity, my heart won by his humility in regards to my arrogance, pride, and utter blindness and the fact that he did not thrust me down to woe. But rather touched my cheek as it were a coup, like the great Crow Warrior Chief, Plenty Coups, and changed my heart. And so, rather than utter condemnations of sinners. Mine is to proclaim Gods kindness and that he lives. It is to praise his brevity, skill, divinity, and the power to save at his leisure. Because I am spared, therefore I spare in judgment. The lion of Judah is tender and laid down his might to the last sinew. Shall we look to another?

 

Actually.... in 2016 the Amish got a prophecy that they should turn up and vote in that election......
in several States the Amish vote swung the final results away from Hillary over to President Donald J. Trump!

I should try to remember where I heard that......
I think it was at The Return that was led by Rabbi Jonathan Cahn.... but I could be wrong.....





Jonathan Cahn at "The Return": We Are Glorifying Sin | Praise on TBN
83,680 views
Sep 28, 2020

 

I began to pray around 1974 or 1975 when I was fifteen.... I have had so many amazing answers to prayers over the years that I am still in something like awe at the mercy and kindness that I have received from Messiah Yeshua - Jesus.

I am curious if you have ever read the fascinating near death experience of Black Elk?

I personally believe that the NDE account of Black Elk fits perfectly with both the Jewish as well as the Christian scriptures.


https://near-death.com/native-americans/

 

In Post #17 the comment was: "Regardless, Jesus lets people choose their own path. If someone chooses not to follow Jesus and make him Lord, Jesus won't do anything. You are welcome to follow your own path to its inevitable conclusion - death."

Therefore, if stars and galaxies die after existing for billions of years, why do you think a zombie will save you from death?

 

And?