You can't understand the Constitution without God

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by yguy, Apr 30, 2016.

  1. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    The purpose of the document is of course stated in its Preamble:

    We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.​

    Clearly you cannot understand the document without understanding its purpose, which in turn you cannot understand without understanding what Justice, Welfare and Liberty are, which in turn you cannot understand absent a dispensation from God, the Author of those transcendent principles.

    Discuss.

    BTW, if I vouchsafe you an answer to some retarded question like "which God" or "whose God", don't expect it to be anything but derisive.
     
  2. ChiCowboy

    ChiCowboy Well-Known Member

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    I understand it quite well, and I'm an atheist. There ya go. Trounced on the first reply.
     
  3. AboveAlpha

    AboveAlpha Well-Known Member

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    The U.S. Constitution not only gives American's freedom of religion...it also gives us FREEDOM FROM RELIGION.

    AA
     
  4. rickysdisciple

    rickysdisciple New Member

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    How do you know these concepts come from god? Where do you get this information?
     
  5. ChristopherABrown

    ChristopherABrown Well-Known Member

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    Ahhh ha! That is why so few in this forum agree and accept definition of prime constitutional intent through this inquiry.

    Do you agree and accept that the framers of the founding documents intended for us to alter or abolish government destructive to our unalienable rights?

    Do you agree and accept that the ultimate purpose of free speech is to enable the unity adequate to effectively alter or abolish?
     
  6. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    Certainly one could draw that conclusion if, for some unaccountable reason, one took the underlined on faith. In any case it can be confidently asserted that no one who thinks, e.g., that Obergefell was properly decided understands the first thing about the Constitution.

    Transcendent principles, not concepts.

    You're not open to the answer.

    Do me a big favor and take a hike, there's a good fellow.
     
  7. rickysdisciple

    rickysdisciple New Member

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    How do I find them?

    If you gave me a credible reason to believe in god I would do it right now. I don't even like being an atheist.
     
  8. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    Elsewhere you said you're never in the moment, and always lost in thought; and in the latter realm you'll never find them.

    Then what is the point of repeatedly insisting that humans are just animals, glorified robots or whatever?
     
  9. rickysdisciple

    rickysdisciple New Member

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    Why? I try not to determine my beliefs based on what makes me feel good.
     
  10. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    "You can't understand the Constitution without God"

    you may not be able too, but the Constitution has nothing to do with your God

    and sense there is no bible God, I doubt you will ever understand the Constitution....especially the parts about the government not endorsing any religion
     
  11. ChiCowboy

    ChiCowboy Well-Known Member

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    ...; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.

    Looks like the Constitution itself says those who interpret its meaning don't need god.
     
  12. Sharpie

    Sharpie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What is the authority behind concepts of right and wrong? When you lose that authority and replace it with a dictator, you lose the ability to discern if you are committing crimes against humanity.
     
  13. ChiCowboy

    ChiCowboy Well-Known Member

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    There's a reason dictators are called authoritarian. Your argument seems to be redundant.

    How are you relating this to the Constitution and god?
     
  14. Sharpie

    Sharpie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes, and dictators have been known to lead nations into some pretty heinous acts against humanity, as we see every day. The larger concept behind our laws and constitution is an understanding that the President or any other leader is not God. They are under God. If the word "God" makes you uncomfortable, replace it with "universal goodness".
    Without that higher power, who says you shouldn't kill and steal. Seems to be OK with many people and many leaders!
     
  15. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    so have religious leaders, let's just keep religion and government separate

    most of us have a conscience that tells us good from bad, for those that don't we have the law.....

    .
     
  16. ChristopherABrown

    ChristopherABrown Well-Known Member

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    I shall walk on you.

    Are you unaccountably trying to state God did not intend for us to alter or abolish government destructive to our unalienable rights?

    Then are you trying to state that God would not want us to have the unity adequate to effectively alter or abolish?

    EXCERPT OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE.

    Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation​

    The framers acknowledge a God of nature and laws of nature. Clearly, the separation from England was an alteration of their relationship with authority, and the intent was extended to the government they were creating knowing full well that such things can be taken over covertly.

    Since Natures God would naturally want people to be empowered by their unity supporting that nature, to alter or abolish in protection of their lives and supporting unalienable rights, the purpose of free speech would naturally be to enable such unity.
     
  17. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    Nothing to discuss. You are one of those religious bigots, who think those who do not share your vision, must be ignorant without your vision. Its the height of conceit, and idiocy all wrapped in a shroud.

    As for your derisive replies to who's god and which god, its a debate forum and we tend to respect reasoned and articulated replies over snark, but if that is all you have, then snark will have to do your heavy lifting here.
     
  18. Steady Pie

    Steady Pie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Natural law is not a concept which requires God, neither does the acceptance of objective normative truths.

    The framers established a system very based on Christian principles, which was to inculcate a system of freedom of religion. Unlike any other nation on the planet at the time, the US was open to religious liberty. That means the liberty to have non-Christian religious views, or no religious views at all. The first amendment also prohibits any sort of preference by government being endowed on religion.

    All of this was for a very obvious reason: to prevent the populous states from establishing a tyranny based on their denomination. I agree that the states were not at all meant to be impartial on religious matters. That has changed with time, with the incorporation of the establishment clause onto the states. That was also done constitutionally.

    [hr][/hr]

    I strongly disagree that you need religion to understand the constitution. Philosophy is philosophy. Do your homework and you'll understand it.
     
  19. Evmetro

    Evmetro Active Member Past Donor

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    It is ironic that the only people who can conceive what your post means are those who understand and appreciate God. The responses that you get from God haters will not be made after objectively evaluating your post, and will most likely only be justifying their personal distaste for God. Your post will simply be scanned for opportunities to discredit God, and the responses will only be subjective.
     
  20. Sharpie

    Sharpie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So first, I'm not inserting religion into the constitution. I'm saying you were not born with a conscience. Like it or not, the strongest constraint to killing someone is not the law, but the belief (perhaps unconsciously) or feeling that that person has value as a creation.

    Animals kill all the time and don't lose a wink over it.

    The values on which our laws are based were not invented by Moses, to be sure, but he cut them in stone for the rest of us to remember. Our founding fathers were not all religious to a man -- but they did come from a world of classical education and religious environments. It informed the truths which they were sure at the time were self evident.
     
  21. Evmetro

    Evmetro Active Member Past Donor

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    Good stuff. The ten commandments are embedded into our laws, which has helped in passing the moral compass along from one generation to the next. Our laws act as a guide to what is right or wrong, so those who can't get along with the first commandment can still function in a society that is founded on judeo Christian values.
     
  22. Evmetro

    Evmetro Active Member Past Donor

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    In Islamic countries, PEOPLE kill other people all the time and don't lose a wink over it. They do not have a judeo Christian upbringing, so they do not have a judeo Christian conscience either. Their conscience is similar to that of dogs and cats when it comes to murder and rape, even in their own families.
     
  23. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    we were not created by a God, some of us were born with a conscience, not all.....

    many Animals do not have a conscience... and they were not created by a God either, though someday man may invent new types of Animals, would those men be Gods?

    blasphemy will never be a law in this country, the constitution wont allow the ten commandments to ever be law
    .
     
  24. Diuretic

    Diuretic Well-Known Member

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    We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


    Clearly you cannot understand the document without understanding its purpose, which in turn you cannot understand without understanding what Justice, Welfare and Liberty are, which in turn you cannot understand absent a dispensation from God, the Author of those transcendent principles.


    I’d agree that understanding the purpose of the Constitution is key to understanding it because it is all about purpose. It’s a collection of words in English, English being the common language of the new nation at that time, expressing concepts and values which were derived from English culture.


    English justice was in a fairly developed state in the late 18th Century. It was a bit rough on criminals by our standards but its jurisprudence was pretty well understood. But there were bits missing. The idea that the prosecution was required to make its case might have been implied but in the original jurisdiction wasn’t really in concrete until Woolmington - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woolmington_v_DPP . But I think it’s fair to say that at the time of the development of the Constitution that a few concepts of what justice meant were understood, courtesy of the Enlightenment. The Enlightenment itself, among other things, rejected the overwhelming authority of the Church, favouring reason over dogma.


    Tranquility is a good thing and hardly religious. Peace is not reliant upon dogma.


    Common defence. The original 13 colonies just fought a war for independence. Of course they wanted to ensure that the new nation would band together for mutual protection. But again, not a religious concept.


    General welfare. Unless he was part of the Salvation Army then General Welfare had nothing to do with religion.


    Liberty. Again an Enlightenment concept, a rejection of the authoritarian state, monarch and church.


    I think you haven’t made your case. You’ve relied on Enlightenment principles and they are removed from religious principles.
     
  25. ImNotOliver

    ImNotOliver Well-Known Member

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    Being as the probability of a god actually existing in reality is around zero and the fact that all the so-called holy books have clearly been writen by humans; I don't see how it could be possible for a non-existent being, that never wrote anything, to be the author of anything.

    I'll even take this argument one step further. From my point of view; anyone who thinks that the US Constitution can only be understood by invoking a mythical supernatural entity has no realistic concept of what the constitution is really about.
     

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