People that think that torture is okay should not be put in charge of other people.

Is that really a moralist thing? 'Cause it just seems practical to me.

Eminently practical.

See DB, how I look at this, is that these Neo-Nut-Jobs, are suddenly questioning the contract. Like, out of nowhere - for no reason.

I mean, you know, I thought "We" (the People) had agreed on the nature and meaning of our contract, like, two hundred plus years ago. Is that not the case?

And now suddenly these Neo-Nuts come along and wanna start "changing" things - they're even questioning the fundamental assumptions underlying the contract.

And I mean, okay - we can do that, if you feel it's really necessary - but why? "Why" do you feel it's necessary? I mean, the only reason someone would do that, is 'cause they had a problem with the contract in the first place, right?

So, like, what's the problem?

No....waterboarding is not torture. It's a harsh, uncomfortable treatment that makes people talk. It last only seconds. No water gets into the lung....NOR the mouth, for that matter. It simply creates the sensation of gagging which is uncomfortable. It makes people talk. It's effective. And I'm just sorry the bleeding heart terrorist sympathizers have ruined it for us.

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"This is a time for a national imperative not to fail in Iraq." Condoleeza Rice, January 11, 2007

I doubt its effectiveness and I can live all day long with ruining your fun on this one.

....the public consciousness.

I have been following the debate with some interest. I think it can be taken as a 'given' that the tape was destroyed in order to prevent the opponents of the illegal occupation of Iraq using its contents to bolster their legitimate case.

The effect of the contents of the tape not being shown gives credence to those who falsely claim that the means (in this case the barbaric use of waterboarding as a method of torture) can be used to justify the ends.

The tape would have undoubtably revealed just how barbaric the use of waterboarding as a torture technique is, and would have undermined the reasoning of some on this site who appear to be under the illusion that 2 minutes of 'humane' torture US style cannot be compared to the 'barbaric' methods of torture Muslim style.

Ultimately, as far as the political establishment is concerned, the fact that the US use the barbaric method of torture as a means to extract information, cannot be allowed to enter the public consciousness. This is the reason why the tape was destroyed. In other words, the decision to destroy it was a political one that emenated from the the high echelons of the political US establishment.

You missed this part

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Es ist nichts schrecklicher als eine tätige Unwissenheit.

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

You're not the expert. CIA officials involved say it was quite effective. So, I'll take their word on that point.

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"This is a time for a national imperative not to fail in Iraq." Condoleeza Rice, January 11, 2007

I've already posted evidence that water does get into the lungs. If its not extreme pain it wouldn't be used. Ask John Mccain, he has pointed out that we have sentenced Japanese to hard labor for using waterboarding.


And to say a CIA agent was tortured because he was waterboarded is foolish. If it's voluntary it's not torture, otherwise I believe the entire cast of Jackass would be in jail for torturing one another.

No, I didn't msis that part at all. I read the entire article. It does NOT negate the FACT that he said the procedure was EFFECTIVE AND SAVED LIVES. He also said it was necessary at the time. Fortunately for us there are professionals around willing to do the hard stuff.....the unpleasant stuff.....to keep our citizens safe.

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"This is a time for a national imperative not to fail in Iraq." Condoleeza Rice, January 11, 2007

Sorry Mack....but you're wrong. You are not an expert. This ex-CIA agent was there and helped to interrogate Abu Zabayda. He not only KNOWS the procedure and how it's done---it was done to him in training:

"Waterboarding begins by placing a suspect on a table with the suspect's feet slightly elevated, said Kiriakou, who was waterboarded several years ago as part of his CIA training. He said he elected not to learn how to perform the technique, which is designed to emulate the sensation of drowning.

Once a suspect is secured on the table, interrogators wrap his or her face in a cellophane-like material, Kiriakou said.

"There is a bladder, or a water source, above the head with water pouring down on the mouth, so no water is going into your mouth, but it induces a gag reflex and makes you feel like you're choking," Kiriakou said.

Kiriakou said he lasted only a few seconds during his training because his body felt like it was seizing up almost immediately.

"It's entirely unpleasant," Kiriakou said. "You are so full of tension that you tense up, your muscles tighten up. It's very uncomfortable."

Abu Zubayda lasted a little longer, said Kiriakou, but not much."

NOTE: NO WATER GOES INTO THE MOUTH. If water does not go into the mouth, it therefore cannot go into the lungs.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/...pes/index.html

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"This is a time for a national imperative not to fail in Iraq." Condoleeza Rice, January 11, 2007