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About LinkBacksYeah, just like I expect you believe everyone hates America for its 'freedoms'...Originally Posted by WanRen
Guru
Yeah, just like I expect you believe everyone hates America for its 'freedoms'...
Commentator
First, let's get one thing straight. You said Israel was created through resolution 181, which is completely wrong, since it was never implemented, hence the reason for Israel's admission to the UN, resolution 181's implementation was a condition. And after all, you too stated Israel was created/accepted by the UN via resolution 181. Although, as I mentioned already, resolution 181 was never implemented, and the UN does not have the authority to create states in the first place. With all due and sincere respect to Borat it was yet another case when his post was misleadingYour initial claim is resolution 181 created Israel, but this is not true. And if you need any clarifications for any of my so called "misleading posts" I will be willing to do so.
Israel had some recognition, but as you claim, is not true. It had but a minimal amount. When Israel's first application to the UN was rejected, it certainly showed their non-recognition of the state, namely for its noncompliance of UN resolutions. Recognition is but one of the actual necessities to acquire statehood.
The Israeli representative even stated that "Israel was the only State in the world which had sprung into existence at the summons of the international community" during the debate for Israel's admission. And as a publication by the United Nations in 1981, titled The Question of Palestine confirms "Israel was admitted to the UN in May 1949. A special relationship existed between Israel and the UN, since Israel was the only State to have achieved statehood and acquired territory through an act of the United Nations."
The meeting for Israel's admission also said "The thousands of immigrants entering Palestine were occupying property which had been expropriated from the Arab inhabitants. They were intending to establish permanent residence there. Thus, the Israeli Government was attempting to create a de facto situation to support its contention that it would be difficult to apply the principle of repatriation of Arab refugees." I believe this is a pretty good way to sum up how the international community saw Israel after the 1948 war.
The UN inherently does not have the right to "create states" but in this particular case it is quite different, since the UN certainly was concerned in the future of a territory. Before resolution 273, Israel did not have defined borders, and in fact, only in an exchange of letters between Israel and the UNSC was this decided upon.
But I suppose if you'd like Israel to be established based off of resolution 181, then Israel must leave 23% of the current state land.
Last edited by Khalil; Apr 26 2012 at 02:21 PM.
Guru
The text of resolution 273 clearly states that it admits Israel as a UN member (it does not create or establish Israel, it assumes its existence and merely admits it as a member). That said and in light of your quote above I will be happy to accept your point of view on the matter as 23% of the current state land is nothing to sneeze at and most certainly worth the compromise LOL
Jerusalem appears in the Jewish Bible 669 times...The Christian Bible mentions Jerusalem 154 times. In contrast, Jerusalem appears as frequently in the Qur'an as it does in the Hindu Bhagavad-Gita—which is to say, not once.
Not everyone, mostly Muslims that is why they branded the USA as the great Satan! But not Russia or China, even though China have a very healthy relationship with Israel.
Israel was legally recognize as a sovereign nation by a legitimate international organization that all the Muslim countries who are against Israel are members of and have violated their UN membership by invading a UN member State. At the same time, we see that those Muslim States have no problem when Europe's superpowers partition and created States such as Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain, UAE and Saudi Arabia.
The only reason those Muslim countries have problem with Israel is because Israel is not an Islamic state. Jordan and Egypt have set aside their Islamist ideology that is why they were able to successfully sign a peace treaty with Israel and have live in peace. The only security threat that Egypt and Jordan faces is not Israel but Islamist who want them to dissolve the peace treaty with Israel.
Last edited by WanRen; Apr 26 2012 at 03:54 PM.
Abraham Lincoln: In regard to this Great Book, I have but to say, it is the best gift God has given to man. All the good the Savior gave to the world was communicated through this book. But for it we could not know right from wrong. All things most desirable for man's welfare, here and hereafter, are to be found portrayed in it.
Commentator
Yes, and resolution 181, which was never implemented never created Israel either. Israel was created through the dispossession and destruction of the Palestinians.The text of resolution 273 clearly states that it admits Israel as a UN member (it does not create or establish Israel, it assumes its existence and merely admits it as a member). That said and in light of your quote above I will be happy to accept your point of view on the matter as 23% of the current state land is nothing to sneeze at and most certainly worth the compromise LOL
Although, prior to resolution 273 Israel had a very small amount of recognition. In fact, after Arafat's speech in 1974 in the General Assembly, the Palestinian Arabs had more states recognizing them than Israel for a short while!
In short, you were wrong about resolution 181. Secondly, Israel itself was created through the action of the Untied Nations, without it, Israel may not exist today.
Last edited by Khalil; Apr 26 2012 at 05:17 PM.
Guru
It partitioned Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab states. Palestinian Jews "implemented" the resolution, Palestinian Arabs together with the rest of the Arab world instead of "implementing" their part of the resolution tried their best to prevent the Jews from implementing theirs....and failed miserably.
But as I said in my previous post, if believing that Israel was "created" by UNGA resolution 273 is important to you to recognize its right to exist and acknowledge its legitimacy, I will be more than willing to compromise.
Last edited by Borat; Apr 26 2012 at 05:59 PM.
Jerusalem appears in the Jewish Bible 669 times...The Christian Bible mentions Jerusalem 154 times. In contrast, Jerusalem appears as frequently in the Qur'an as it does in the Hindu Bhagavad-Gita—which is to say, not once.
Commentator
Yes it indeed was to partition Palestine, but it never did. This was acknowledged in the debates at the United Nations before Israel was admitted into the UN. It was also debated in the United Nations not long after its proposal, and during the war. Many countries, including the Untied States, were backing down from the idea of partitioning Palestine though. Only the Soviet Union and Ukraine remained with support for the partition. The United Nations and the United States themselves proposed different ideas that could fix the situation in Palestine during the time (for example April 20, the proposal of the temporary trusteeship solution to be administered by the Trusteeship Council). Then without further due, Israel declared independence and the US, only 16 minutes after the official proclamation in Tel-Aviv recognized Israel. There was never a partition of the territory, namely because Israel never allowed for this “Arab state” to be created. The debates, and counter/other proposals in the UN clearly show that the resolution wasn't implemented, and so do other facts in which I've stated. This is also why resolution 181 was Israel’s obligation to implement on condition of joining the United Nations – which they obviously have violated. The Zionists didn’t implement the resolution as you claim, but rather, they kicked out 70% of the Palestinian population, destroyed anywhere between 400-500 Palestinian villages and towns, and then built their settlements over it, including territory that was not designated to them in the partition.It partitioned Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab states. Palestinian Jews "implemented" the resolution, Palestinian Arabs together with the rest of the Arab world instead of "implementing" their part of the resolution tried their best to prevent the Jews from implementing theirs....and failed miserably.
But as I said in my previous post, if believing that Israel was "created" by UNGA resolution 273 is important to you to recognize its right to exist and acknowledge its legitimacy, I will be more than willing to compromise.
It was a small amount of Palestinians that did anything to stop implementation of the partition resolution. Moreover, according to “History of the Haganah” the Palestinians who had arms were more concerned with defending their villages or neighborhoods than going out to attack the Jewish forces. Many Palestinian communities also went out of their way to create nonaggression pacts with neighboring Jewish communities. The nonaggression pacts being made by Palestinians became so big that it was taken up in a debate on January 25, 1948 between Ben-Gurion and his political and military assistants. It’s quite ridiculous too, because the majority of the Zionists debating this opposed the nonaggression pacts that could have created peace in neighboring communities. When the Arab Higher Committee declared war in response to the UN Partition Resolution, and the Mufti took action, according to the “History of the Haganah” confirm that “Even before the British left, Arabs towns were taken by the Jews, and local population either fled or was driven out.” In other words, Zionists were already committing crimes against the Arab population, before the Arab Higher Committee declared war on the partition resolution. Furthermore, the Palestinians that actually took action against the Partition numbered very little. The total number of the local Palestinian population that answered the Mufti and the AHC’s call for support never exceeded 3,000 (and yes, only 3,000, this is in a population of over 1 million Arabs that inhabited the area at the time of the partition).
I have actually mentioned the AHC several times now, and I think it would be important to mention that before the partition resolution was proposed, the Arab Higher Committee demanded for the creation of a democratic state, with secure equal rights for all its citizens. They specified this when trying to make a case to the UN Ad Hoc Committee in September 3, 1947.
The League for National Liberation, a political party in Palestine, even worked actively to prevent the provocations and riots that could have led to war. After all, it was the Ben-Gurion who had the final word in most cases, and he did nothing to prevent the Jewish groups like Irgun and Lehi from attacking Palestinians before the establishment of the state. According to official data, 60% of the Zionist forces who died during the war, died outside the boundaries of the proposed Jewish state in the partition plan, and 80% of them died in offense while attacking Palestinian communities. These to numbers tell you a lot. In short, your claims are baseless.
No, Israel wasn’t created in resolution 273, but they were indeed created through an act of the United Nations, and for a matter of fact, the only state in which that has happened. Resolution 273 accepted Israel into the international community. “Sadly”, this very resolution could suspend Israel from the United Nations system for its noncompliance with its obligations it was to implement on condition for its admission to the UN.
Last edited by Khalil; Apr 26 2012 at 07:22 PM.
Guru
Which in fact gives Israel far more legitimacy than any other state has, especially states created by conquest like Australia, the US, Canada New Zealand, all of South America etc. Israel was created by the will of the world. That does not sound too bad, does it? LOL
Khalil, you are making sh*t up again, the resolution admitting Israel to the UN was unconditional.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...Resolution_273
That said, if you wanted to suspend states for non-compliance with their international obligations you would pretty soon have no UN member states left and the first to go would be the Arab/Muslim states (all of them) and their major allies - Russia, China, North Korea and Third world/African states (also all of them).
Last edited by Borat; Apr 27 2012 at 11:40 AM.
Jerusalem appears in the Jewish Bible 669 times...The Christian Bible mentions Jerusalem 154 times. In contrast, Jerusalem appears as frequently in the Qur'an as it does in the Hindu Bhagavad-Gita—which is to say, not once.
Commentator
Borat, please respond to my entire comment. I'm getting tired of how you make several claims in one post, then I refute them all, then you only reply to a fraction of what I said.
I'm waiting...
In fact, I'll reply to your terrible comment, and then re-post what you ignored (virtually my entire comment above). How are we to have a discussion if you can't respond?
Last edited by Khalil; Apr 27 2012 at 11:49 AM.
Guru
Most of what you are saying is a blatant revision of history and you don't even bother providing any kind of evidence to support your position. See your previous post for a good example of a fact-less opinion which you of course are entitled to have.
How exactly do you expect me to respond? You declare that Israel did not allow the creation of a palestinian state. And I will say that Israel did. It won't make for a meaningful debate but if it that can make you happy, I will gladly oblige.
Last edited by Borat; Apr 27 2012 at 12:04 PM.
Jerusalem appears in the Jewish Bible 669 times...The Christian Bible mentions Jerusalem 154 times. In contrast, Jerusalem appears as frequently in the Qur'an as it does in the Hindu Bhagavad-Gita—which is to say, not once.
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