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  #91 (permalink)  
Old 12-02-2008, 04:16 PM
catawba catawba is offline
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Originally Posted by calmObserver View Post
hardly humorous

I never said it was humorous Calm


apparently they saw a threat!
I just don't happen to agree. From what my son, who was in the Gulf war, told me Iraq would not have been a threat to anyone for at least 100 years. That also matches everything I have read on Iraq.
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  #92 (permalink)  
Old 12-02-2008, 04:24 PM
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no doubt there is alot of oil in iraq, but let's wait until they do the actual geophysical surveys. better not to count your chickens before ther eggs have hatched

As I have said before Calm, this war is not about just controlling resources in Iraq, it is about controlling the oil in all of the Middle East. We already know the Middle East Oil reserves will outlast all others in the world.
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Old 12-02-2008, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by catawba View Post

As I have said before Calm, this war is not about just controlling resources in Iraq, it is about controlling the oil in all of the Middle East. We already know the Middle East Oil reserves will outlast all others in the world.
Well, if that's the case then we're doing it wrong even if the "military" option was selected. It would have made more sense to sit out the Gulf War and hope Saddam took on Saudi Arabia as well as Kuwait. Ideal would have been Iran too but Saddam lost that war. Bottm line, the key being to wait until you only have to attack one country to get all of the oil.

I still stand by my beliefs that Bush Sr employed the US military to bail out his personal friends and former business associates in Kuwait as opposed to the declared "morally right thing to do" because these guys were actually tyrants. Then Bush Jr invaded Iraq because he hated Saddam for threatening to assassinate his father. I know it is a petty reason but I consider Bush Jr to be a very petty man. Two wars both for personal reasons that really had nothing to do with controlling oil without a single consideration related to America.
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Old 12-02-2008, 04:44 PM
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Well, if that's the case then we're doing it wrong even if the "military" option was selected. It would have made more sense to sit out the Gulf War and hope Saddam took on Saudi Arabia as well as Kuwait. Ideal would have been Iran too but Saddam lost that war. Bottm line, the key being to wait until you only have to attack one country to get all of the oil.

I still stand by my beliefs that Bush Sr employed the US military to bail out his personal friends and former business associates in Kuwait as opposed to the declared "morally right thing to do" because these guys were actually tyrants. Then Bush Jr invaded Iraq because he hated Saddam for threatening to assassinate his father. I know it is a petty reason but I consider Bush Jr to be a very petty man. Two wars both for personal reasons that really had nothing to do with controlling oil without a single consideration related to America.
I respect your opinion Shiva, I just don't happen to agree here. I believe the Gulf war was to protect our oil spigots in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia.

I think our 2003 war against Iraq was to establish a U.S. friendly regime that would allow our permanent military presence in the Middle East to assume protection and U.S. friendly control of all Middle East oil.
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Old 12-02-2008, 05:04 PM
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I respect your opinion Shiva, I just don't happen to agree here. I believe the Gulf war was to protect our oil spigots in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia.

I think our 2003 war against Iraq was to establish a U.S. friendly regime that would allow our permanent military presence in the Middle East to assume protection and U.S. friendly control of all Middle East oil.
One problem with your position. We had a spigot in Iraq as well so any Kuwaiti oil would have come to us as well.

Of course we know what our military bases in Saudi Arabia led to, the 1993 WTC bombing, the attacks on our African embassies, the attack on the USS Cole, and the attacks of 9/11. That was a pretty steep price for something we already had (i.e. oil from the Middle East).
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Last edited by Shiva_TD; 12-02-2008 at 05:04 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 12-02-2008, 05:27 PM
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One problem with your position. We had a spigot in Iraq as well so any Kuwaiti oil would have come to us as well.

Please clarify Shiva, I'm not sure exactly what you are saying above.

Of course we know what our military bases in Saudi Arabia led to, the 1993 WTC bombing, the attacks on our African embassies, the attack on the USS Cole, and the attacks of 9/11. That was a pretty steep price for something we already had (i.e. oil from the Middle East).

Not sure what you mean here either, Saddam Nationalized oil in Iraq 35 years ago and kicked the Western oil companies out. How did that leave us with military control of all Middle East oil?
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Old 12-02-2008, 05:38 PM
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Not sure what you mean here either, Saddam Nationalized oil in Iraq 35 years ago and kicked the Western oil companies out. How did that leave us with military control of all Middle East oil?
Iraq was selling us all of the oil we wanted to buy often at a discount below APEC's rate to fund his war machine. Remember, we were the Middle East's biggest customer at the time.

Now things are quite different and we only buy somewhere between 30-40% of our imported oil from the Middle East or about 25% of our total needs. Middle East oil is not that big of a deal anymore because of other sources. If we exploited our own reserves we could live without a drop of Middle East oil which is why being there for oil is so stupid.
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Old 12-02-2008, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Shiva_TD View Post
Iraq was selling us all of the oil we wanted to buy often at a discount below APEC's rate to fund his war machine. Remember, we were the Middle East's biggest customer at the time.

Now things are quite different and we only buy somewhere between 30-40% of our imported oil from the Middle East or about 25% of our total needs. Middle East oil is not that big of a deal anymore because of other sources. If we exploited our own reserves we could live without a drop of Middle East oil which is why being there for oil is so stupid.
You forgot to mention a few important points. Iraq's oil production was not near what it could be under Western oil companies supervision. Saddam switched to the Euro in 2000 and the Middle East oil supplies will outlast all others on earth. We were past peak oil in the US in the 70's.

"Europe's dream of promoting the euro as a competitor to the U.S. dollar may get a boost from SADDAM HUSSEIN. Iraq says that from now on, it wants payments for its oil in euros, despite the fact that the battered European currency unit, which used to be worth quite a bit more than $1, has dropped to about 82[cents]. Iraq says it will no longer accept dollars for oil because it does not want to deal "in the currency of the enemy."

The switch to euros would cost the U.N. a small fortune in accounting-paperwork changes. It would also reduce the interest earnings and reparations payments that Iraq is making for damage it caused during the Gulf War, a shortfall the Iraqis would have to make up.

The move hurts Iraq, the U.N. and the countries receiving reparations. So why is Saddam doing it? Diplomatic sources say switching to the euro will favor European suppliers over U.S. ones in competing for Iraqi contracts, and the p.r. boost that Baghdad would probably get in Europe would be another plus."

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...998512,00.html

Last edited by catawba; 12-02-2008 at 06:07 PM.
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Old 12-03-2008, 01:26 PM
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I just don't happen to agree. From what my son, who was in the Gulf war, told me Iraq would not have been a threat to anyone for at least 100 years. That also matches everything I have read on Iraq.
if you want to ignore facts, base your opinions on speculation that's fine with me. as i have said before you'll get there some day ~ by process of elimination. be prepared the longer it take the worse it will be for everyone ~ and i do mean everyone
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Old 12-03-2008, 01:33 PM
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As I have said before Calm, this war is not about just controlling resources in Iraq, it is about controlling the oil in all of the Middle East. We already know the Middle East Oil reserves will outlast all others in the world.
yes, Pax Americana;

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The Project for the New American Century (PNAC) is an American neoconservative think tank based in Washington, D.C., co-founded in early 1997 as a non-profit educational organization by William Kristol and Robert Kagan. The PNAC's stated goal is "to promote American global leadership."[1] Fundamental to the PNAC are the views that "American leadership is both good for America and good for the world" and support for "a Reaganite policy of military strength and moral clarity."[2] Critics claim that it has exerted strong influence on high-level U.S. government officials in the administration of U.S. President George W. Bush and strongly affected the George Bush administration's development of military and foreign policies, especially involving national security and the Iraq War. for more...
guess what cat ~ same vatos

Elliott Abrams, I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, Norman Podhoretz, Donald Rumsfeld,
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