the end of the charade - Page 7

websthes · #61 (**permalink**) 01-16-2009, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pegwinn

I don't think judging Israel by Canadian standards is right or fair. JMO.

Why?..........

pegwinn · #62 (**permalink**) 01-16-2009, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by websthes

Why?..........

Because you aint them. It's that whole walk a mile thing. I understand that there are times when you must make a judgment call to take action. But, when simply forming an opinion for discussion our judgments can only be second hand and valid for compare/contrast.

websthes · #63 (**permalink**) 01-16-2009, 02:26 PM

So Israel has the right to be an apartheid state. And the Palestinians who used to be part of Jordan and are now second-class citizens of Israel have to roll over and take whatever the chosen people dish out.

pegwinn · #64 (**permalink**) 01-16-2009, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by websthes

So Israel has the right to be an apartheid state. Yes they do. And the Palestinians who used to be part of Jordan and are now second-class citizens of Israel have to roll over and take whatever the chosen people dish out. Yes again.

WE may not agree philosophically with the above, but we are not Israeli. Our entire history isn't one long running war with religious fanatics who wish to kill us for our religion. We have not lived with random acts of terrorism for our entire lives.

Some other questions would be why Jordan doesn't cede that part of the land the Palestinians were on to them? Another question is, if Israel didn't want the Palestinians, why didn't the Palestinians simply go elsewhere?

If those questions sound unreasonable I would say that those who question why Israel responds harshly to terrorists are being unreasonable.

That mile is looming long my friend.

websthes · #65 (**permalink**) 01-16-2009, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pegwinn

WE may not agree philosophically with the above, but we are not Israeli. Our entire history isn't one long running war with religious fanatics who wish to kill us for our religion. We have not lived with random acts of terrorism for our entire lives.

Maybe when the Israelis stop behaving like religious fanatics, and respect the Palestinians' rights, they will find many Palestinians willing to form a secular society with them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pegwinn

Another question is, if Israel didn't want the Palestinians, why didn't the Palestinians simply go elsewhere?

Because they have nowhere else to go. Whether you choose to call the territory Israel or Palestine, that's where their homes are.

pegwinn · #66 (**permalink**) 01-16-2009, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by websthes

Maybe when the Israelis stop behaving like religious fanatics, and respect the Palestinians' rights, they will find many Palestinians willing to form a secular society with them. It's possible, but the leadership is who has to do it, not the people. I've seen the results of terrorism up close and the locals are normally close to you and I. They get up, they work for the daily bread, they hope for a better future. The leadership of more than one nation in that region has over time created a situation that Israel finds untenable. While you and I don't agree, Israel was formed as a religious nation. And the other nations have waged holy war against her for so long that it is ingrained I believe.

Because they have nowhere else to go. Whether you choose to call the territory Israel or Palestine, that's where their homes are. I'd have to go look at a map, but if I remember wasn't "Palastine" the colloquial name for the entire region? If so, common sense would suggest that they should have made an effort to not live where they were either not wanted, or didn't fit in.

I feel for the poor folks being trapped between the hammer and anvil of Hamas and Israel. But, I can personally understand the Israeli hard line against Hamas. The tactics of Hamas are cowardly and they need killing to ensure future safety.

General Mattis said it best: “I come in peace,” Mattis recalled telling them. “I didn’t bring artillery. But I’m pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you f*** with me, I’ll kill you all.” - Source

Jellah · #67 (**permalink**) 01-16-2009, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pegwinn

WE may not agree philosophically with the above, but we are not Israeli. Our entire history isn't one long running war with religious fanatics who wish to kill us for our religion. We have not lived with random acts of terrorism for our entire lives.

Some other questions would be why Jordan doesn't cede that part of the land the Palestinians were on to them? Another question is, if Israel didn't want the Palestinians, why didn't the Palestinians simply go elsewhere?

If those questions sound unreasonable I would say that those who question why Israel responds harshly to terrorists are being unreasonable.

That mile is looming long my friend.

Yea because if some people from Tibet come and want to take your home and nation from you...you will just go elsewhere and we can ask Canada why they dont offer the solution while saying Tibetetans have the right to take your land... and then affirm its ok for the Tibetens who have stolen your land to go forward and use racist policy if you manage to stay in your home where your family has lived for over a thousand years!

Its funny, how you and web talk about religious fanaticism yet Israel is built on it! They claim to be gods favorites and claim the land based on a religous premise and think it was ok to remove the natives to take it for themselves...."God says I can steal and ethnically cleanse"...thats Israel religious dogma in a nutshell.

Religion is indeed handy when you want to justify the unjustifiable and want to excuse evil...NOTHING beats religion for that.

pegwinn · #68 (**permalink**) 01-17-2009, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jellah

Yea because if some people from Tibet come and want to take your home and nation from you...you will just go elsewhere and we can ask Canada why they dont offer the solution while saying Tibetetans have the right to take your land... and then affirm its ok for the Tibetens who have stolen your land to go forward and use racist policy if you manage to stay in your home where your family has lived for over a thousand years!

Its funny, how you and web talk about religious fanaticism yet Israel is built on it! They claim to be gods favorites and claim the land based on a religous premise and think it was ok to remove the natives to take it for themselves...."God says I can steal and ethnically cleanse"...thats Israel religious dogma in a nutshell.

Religion is indeed handy when you want to justify the unjustifiable and want to excuse evil...NOTHING beats religion for that.

I've seen no ethnic cleansing from Israel. Can you link to the news or something so I can see what you see? Then perhaps we can discuss that.

I understand Israels position and support the concept of a hard line against those who use women and kids as a shield while launching attacks against other civilians.

I want to make sure I am understanding you. From you post it appears that you sympathise with and support Hamas and their actions. Is that true?

i.beletesri · #69 (**permalink**) 01-17-2009, 10:16 AM

And I might add she's completely wrong, and hysterical/hyperbolic as always.. and borderline anti-semitic.

Jews do not claim Israel as "chosen people" but on the History and settlement of the last 200 years.
Especially the last 100 years going back to Balfour, Not "Genesis" and of course UN res 181, creating Both Israel and Palestine. Which the Arabs rejected.

And unlike what will be the new and demanded Pre-cleansed-of Jews 'palestine', Israel is 20% fully enfranchised Arab.. er 'palestinian'.
-

Jellah · #70 (**permalink**) 01-17-2009, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pegwinn

I've seen no ethnic cleansing from Israel. Can you link to the news or something so I can see what you see? Then perhaps we can discuss that.

I understand Israels position and support the concept of a hard line against those who use women and kids as a shield while launching attacks against other civilians.

I want to make sure I am understanding you. From you post it appears that you sympathise with and support Hamas and their actions. Is that true?

Over 500 villages were emptied in an ethnic cleansing in 1948. Do you honestly not understand that to create a jewish majority on a land that is majority Palestinian muslim you would have to ethnically cleanse the current population?

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/S...6&contrassID=2

Historian Benny Morris. Keep in mind he is a staunch zionist and while he will acknowledge the facts, he also AGREES with the ethnic cleansing as he seems to think Israels need to exist is more important than the rights of the Palestinians.

Quote:

What you are telling me here, as though by the way, is that in Operation Hiram there was a comprehensive and explicit expulsion order. Is that right?

"Yes. One of the revelations in the book is that on October 31, 1948, the commander of the Northern Front, Moshe Carmel, issued an order in writing to his units to expedite the removal of the Arab population. Carmel took this action immediately after a visit by Ben-Gurion to the Northern Command in Nazareth. There is no doubt in my mind that this order originated with Ben-Gurion. Just as the expulsion order for the city of Lod, which was signed by Yitzhak Rabin, was issued immediately after Ben-Gurion visited the headquarters of Operation Dani [July 1948]."

Are you saying that Ben-Gurion was personally responsible for a deliberate and systematic policy of mass expulsion?

"From April 1948, Ben-Gurion is projecting a message of transfer. There is no explicit order of his in writing, there is no orderly comprehensive policy, but there is an atmosphere of [population] transfer. The transfer idea is in the air. The entire leadership understands that this is the idea. The officer corps understands what is required of them. Under Ben-Gurion, a consensus of transfer is created."

Ben-Gurion was a "transferist"?

"Of course. Ben-Gurion was a transferist. He understood that there could be no Jewish state with a large and hostile Arab minority in its midst. There would be no such state. It would not be able to exist."

I don't hear you condemning him.

"Ben-Gurion was right. If he had not done what he did, a state would not have come into being. That has to be clear. It is impossible to evade it. Without the uprooting of the Palestinians, a Jewish state would not have arisen here."

This is ethnic cleansing...making sure the area is "cleansed" of a particular ethnic group.

Seriously...how do you think you change the demographics is an area is such a short time frame?

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