the end of the charade - Page 8

Jellah · #71 (**permalink**) 01-17-2009, 10:41 AM

To answer your question about if I support Hamas or not. They are not a govt I would choose by any means but they are not my govt TO CHOOSE. I dont agree with many things they think, say or propose but above all I respect every nations right to determine their own governance.

I dont agree with the Israeli govt either...that doesnt mean I will support attacks on them and efforts to destablize the chosen govt by the Israeli people.

I think both govts HAVE to be respected as the choice of their people and the peace must be made with those govts. Refusals to talk to Hamas would be as bad as refusals to talk to the Israeli govt. Trying to kill members of Hamas is the same as trying to kill members of the Israeli govt.

i.beletesri · #72 (**permalink**) 01-17-2009, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jellah

Over 500 villages were emptied in an ethnic cleansing in 1948. Do you honestly not understand that to create a jewish majority on a land that is majority Palestinian muslim you would have to ethnically cleanse the current population?

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/S...6&contrassID=2

Historian Benny Morris. Keep in mind he is a staunch zionist and while he will acknowledge the facts, he also AGREES with the ethnic cleansing as he seems to think Israels need to exist is more important than the rights of the Palestinians.

This is ethnic cleansing...making sure the area is "cleansed" of a particular ethnic group.

Seriously...how do you think you change the demographics is an area is such a short time frame?

Mebbe demographics changed because of a Litte WAR the Arabs Started in 1948?

NOT that the 'demographics' of the area really changed at all!- just 2-15 miles had the SAME 'demographic'.

Post #15? of this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by me

For maybe the 10th time:

Originally Posted by me

In 1948, The UN apportioned the last of the territory of the Ottoman Break up to the remaining Palestinians (the ones who didn't get 'Jordan'), and the Jews.

77% of the British Mandate [Jordan] and 99% of the Ottoman Land had gone to.... ARABS under various New and old names, previously. No vote of an International Body, just British whim (ie Iraq). Unlike the more legitimate Israel.

The remaining 23% was partitioned-for-rule/Sovereignty/NOT ownership betwen the remaining Resident Jews and Arabs; roughly 13/10 in favor of the Jews. Arabs, ergo, ending up wit 87% of the Mandate.

And of the Jews 13%, 2/3 was [intentionally] State Land and owned by No Arab (passing from the Ottomans to the British to them) including the half alone of Israel that is the Negev Desert.

No land was 'Stolen'.
The Partition involved NO mandatory evacuations Nor land changing hands.
It was the Arab Started War that resulted in Refugees and Evacuated Land, Not the UN Resolution 181.

i.beletesri · #73 (**permalink**) 01-17-2009, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jellah

Over 500 villages were emptied in an ethnic cleansing in 1948. Do you honestly not understand that to create a jewish majority on a land that is majority Palestinian muslim you would have to ethnically cleanse the current population?

Historian Benny Morris. Keep in mind he is a staunch zionist and while he will acknowledge the facts,[ he also AGREES with the ethnic cleansing as he seems to think Israels need to exist is more important than the rights of the Palestinians.

This is ethnic cleansing...making sure the area is "cleansed" of a particular ethnic group....

Further.
benny's Early early work, which Palestinians and anti-Israelers love to quote, has been Discredited by Facts and rebuttal.

He has Forced to recant much of it and is now coming Clean.
Here IS Benny's Latest:

Quote:

[Letter to] Irish Times
February 21, 2008
Israel and the Palestinians
Benny Morris

Madam, - Israel-haters are fond of citing - and more often, mis-citing - my work in support of their arguments. Let me offer some corrections.

The Palestinian Arabs were not responsible "in some bizarre way" (David Norris, January 31st) for what befell them in 1948. Their responsibility was very direct and simple.

In Defiance of the will of the international community, as embodied in the UN General Assembly Resolution of November 29th, 1947 (No. 181),
they launched hostilities against the Jewish community in Palestine in the hope of aborting the emergence of the Jewish state and perhaps destroying that community.
But they lost; and one of the Results was the displacement of 700,000 of them from their homes.
[..........]

Most of Palestine's 700,000 "refugees" fled their homes because of the flail of war (and in the expectation that they would shortly return to their homes on the backs of victorious Arab invaders). But it is also true that there were several dozen sites, including Lydda and Ramla, from which Arab communities were expelled by Jewish troops.

The displacement of the 700,000 Arabs who became "Refugees" - and I put the term in inverted commas, as Two-Thirds of them were displaced from One part of Palestine to Another and NOT from their country (which is the usual definition of a refugee) - was NOT a "racist crime" (David Landy, January 24th) but the result of a national conflict and a war, with religious overtones, from the Muslim perspective, launched by the Arabs themselves.

There was no Zionist "plan" or blanket policy of evicting the Arab population, or of "ethnic cleansing". Plan Dalet (Plan D), of March 10th, 1948 (it is open and available for all to read in the IDF Archive and in various publications), was the master plan of the Haganah - the Jewish military force that became the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) - to counter the expected pan-Arab assault on the emergent Jewish state. That's what it explicitly states and that's what it was. And the invasion of the armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Iraq duly occurred, on May 15th.
[.............]
The demonisation of Israel is largely based on lies - much as the demonisation of the Jews during the past 2,000 years has been based on lies. And there is a connection between the two.

I would recommend that the likes of Norris and Landy read some history books and become acquainted with the facts, not recycle shopworn Arab Propaganda. They might then learn, for example, that the "Palestine War" of 1948 (the "War of Independence," as Israelis call it) began in November 1947, not in May 1948. By May 14th close to 2,000 Israelis had died - of the 5,800 dead suffered by Israel in the whole war (ie almost 1% of the Jewish population of Palestine/Israel, which was about 650,000). - Yours, etc,

Prof Benny Morris, Li-On, Israel.

http://www.zionism-israel.com/israel...ording-to.html

So I guess, barring any Dishonest quoting of his early/recanted work..
That's the last we'll be seeing of Benny Morris!
-

pegwinn · #74 (**permalink**) 01-17-2009, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jellah

This is ethnic cleansing...making sure the area is "cleansed" of a particular ethnic group.

Seriously...how do you think you change the demographics is an area is such a short time frame?

Ok, that is cleared up. I have never, ever heard the term used for anything except as a euphemism for genocide. So, in this case we are talking about mass expulsion. I must say that I prefer that to the attempted extermination the rest of the definition affords.

Quote:

Ethnic cleansing is a euphemism referring to the persecution through imprisonment, expulsion, or killing of members of an ethnic minority by a majority to achieve ethnic homogeneity in majority-controlled territory.[1] It is sometimes used interchangeably with the more connotatively severe term genocide. The term entered English and international media usage in the early 1990s to describe war events in the former Yugoslavia. Source

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jellah

To answer your question about if I support Hamas or not. They are not a govt I would choose by any means but they are not my govt TO CHOOSE. I dont agree with many things they think, say or propose but above all I respect every nations right to determine their own governance.

I dont agree with the Israeli govt either...that doesnt mean I will support attacks on them and efforts to destablize the chosen govt by the Israeli people.

I think both govts HAVE to be respected as the choice of their people and the peace must be made with those govts. Refusals to talk to Hamas would be as bad as refusals to talk to the Israeli govt. Trying to kill members of Hamas is the same as trying to kill members of the Israeli govt.

Ok, you are neutral on the governments in the area? You've answered half of the question. The other concerned Hamas actions. I am going to assume that you do not support hiding amongst civilians to attack other civilians in a blatant attempt to provoke a media event?

Quote:

Originally Posted by pegwinn

I want to make sure I am understanding you. From you post it appears that you sympathise with and support Hamas and their actions. Is that true?

Jellah · #75 (**permalink**) 01-17-2009, 09:26 PM

What Hamas actions are you asking if I agree with or not?

I also dont accept your characterization that they "hide" among civilians. They live there and are the elected govt there....most govts are much better shielded by the civilian population than the Hamas govt is!

Do you feel this way about the Israeli settlements....keep in mind the govt offers some financial benefits to move into settlements...is that the Israeli govt using the civilians to expand the borders, create a new battle front line and placing civilians directly upon it? Are they hiding behind their civilians? What of the civlians in the settlements who engage in actively by directly taking Palestinian lands and then attack and harrass the Palestinians?

pegwinn · #76 (**permalink**) 01-17-2009, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jellah

What Hamas actions are you asking if I agree with or not?

The ones where they hide, literally hide, within residential areas and launch attacks aimed directly at Israeli civilians.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jellah

I also dont accept your characterization that they "hide" among civilians. They live there and are the elected govt there....most govts are much better shielded by the civilian population than the Hamas govt is!

They live there? Ok, that's anologous to saying that our politicians "live here". But the government is in its own offices and our fighters do not launch from residential neighborhoods or churches.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/129190
http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/01/...a.1-408975.php

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jellah

Do you feel this way about the Israeli settlements....keep in mind the govt offers some financial benefits to move into settlements...is that the Israeli govt using the civilians to expand the borders, create a new battle front line and placing civilians directly upon it? Are they hiding behind their civilians? What of the civlians in the settlements who engage in actively by directly taking Palestinian lands and then attack and harrass the Palestinians?

Moving into the settlements only creates a battle front line as you call it when Hamas starts shooting. What I don't see is Israeli civilians launching rockets from schoolyards into Palestinian neighborhoods. I also don't see them directing kids as suicide bombers into crowded Palestinian streets.

Jellah · #77 (**permalink**) 01-17-2009, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pegwinn

The ones where they hide, literally hide, within residential areas and launch attacks aimed directly at Israeli civilians.

They live there? Ok, that's anologous to saying that our politicians "live here". But the government is in its own offices and our fighters do not launch from residential neighborhoods or churches.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/129190
http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/01/...a.1-408975.php

Moving into the settlements only creates a battle front line as you call it when Hamas starts shooting. What I don't see is Israeli civilians launching rockets from schoolyards into Palestinian neighborhoods. I also don't see them directing kids as suicide bombers into crowded Palestinian streets.

If you steal someones property, that is a hostile act in itself and when its done by one nation to another, its an attack and act of war.

Of course Isrealis dont use rockets or suicide bombers, they have planes, white phosphorus, cluster bombs, tanks, nuclear weapons...they have every weapons technology available to them and an extremely well funded military as well as complusory service for all Israelis....its a very militarized society. They use those weapons.

Are you going to complain about rockets while saying NOTHING about Israels use of cluster bombs and white phosphorus on densely populated civilian areas? You cant even PRETEND to be targeting anything but a wide area with such weapons.

BTW, the US hasnt had war on its own soil since WW2 and that was limited to "an attack" rather than a continued battle on our own soil and if we did have such a war on our own soil....our military bases are indeed smack dab in the middle of civilians and residential cities, surrounded by malls etc. The bases themselves have civilian families living right on them (spouses, children etc).

Our politicians live among the civlian population....granted in the nicer zip codes but they live next to civlians and if we had war that was being waged upon us on our own soil with a neighboring nation, we would launch from where-ever was likely to be successful. If the opposition wanted to target US politicians they would have to target civilian locations to get them as well.

Whatthe · #78 (**permalink**) 01-19-2009, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pegwinn

Moving into the settlements only creates a battle front line as you call it when Hamas starts shooting. What I don't see is Israeli civilians launching rockets from schoolyards into Palestinian neighborhoods. I also don't see them directing kids as suicide bombers into crowded Palestinian streets.

There's plenty of hate to go around wherever the settlements spring up. A brief search will turn up (among other, more alarming images) video of settler children that appear to be as young as 8 or 9 throwing rocks at W Bank (Palestinians) and attempting to urinate on them/their property. Blame Hamas for wrecking Gaza, but to blame them for settler violence in the W Bank is ludicrous.

Quote:

RAMALLAH, West Bank, Nov 26 (IPS) - The resolution of the protracted Israeli-Palestinian conflict and future stability in the Middle East could hinge on Hebron, a little town in the southern Palestinian West Bank, 30 km south of Jerusalem.

Thousands of Israeli Defence Force (IDF) soldiers were put on high alert over the weekend as 20,000 Israeli settlers from across the West Bank descended on Hebron.

The settlers were there to mark an annual Jewish pilgrimage and lend their support to a group of fellow settlers threatened with eviction by an Israeli court ruling. The Israeli government feared an outbreak of rioting.

Hebron is home to approximately 600 of Israel's most extreme Israeli settlers, who are surrounded by a Palestinian population of more than 170,000, and protected by several thousand Israeli Defence Force (IDF) soldiers.

Baruch Goldstein, a doctor who had emigrated from the U.S. machine-gunned 29 Palestinians to death in 1994 as they prayed in Hebron's Ibrahimi Mosque during the holy month of Ramadan.

Hebron settlers later built a shrine to him, and many settlers from the occupied territory pay their respects to the late doctor, who was beaten to death by survivors, during visits to the shrine.

There are about 430,000 Israeli settlers living in hundreds of settlements throughout the West Bank, which are illegal according to international law and UN Security Council resolutions.

A recent UN report documented 222 settler attacks against Palestinians and Israeli security forces in the first half of this year, against a total of 291 for the whole of last year.

Last week clashes broke out between Israeli soldiers and Hebron settlers following a controversial ruling by the Israeli High Court of Justice.

The court ruled that a group of settlers illegally occupying a Palestinian home in the town had to vacate the property.

Following the ruling angry settlers went on a rampage, vandalised Palestinian property, desecrated Muslim graves, uprooted 40 olive trees, and scrawled graffiti on a local mosque.

As the Israeli security forces tried to restore a vestige of law and order, a soldier had turpentine thrown in his face, while others were assaulted. IDF vehicles were damaged.

IPS received an urgent media alert from the Christian Peacemakers Team (CPT), a group of international peace activists based in Hebron's old city, who try to protect Palestinian children and farmers from settler attacks.

"This morning 15 masked settlers from the illegal outpost of Havot Ma'on attacked three Palestinian shepherds who were grazing their flocks in a valley south of the outpost.

"The settlers hurled rocks and killed one of the shepherd's donkeys by stabbing it in the chest. They slashed another across the throat, but the donkey survived."

The increasing levels of violence during the past few months have included Israeli soldiers being threatened with knives and guns, and having their hands and arms broken by settlers as the forces tried to evacuate settler outposts.

A holocaust survivor and harsh critic of the settlements, Prof. Zeev Sternhall who lectures at Hebrew University in Israel, was injured after a pipe-bomb exploded outside his Jerusalem home several months ago.

Police found posters in Sternhell's neighbourhood offering a 278,000 dollar reward to anyone who killed a member of Peace Now, an Israeli group that campaigns against settlements in the West Bank.

The Israeli government has expressed alarm, and threatened to take action despite having a history of not only appeasing the settlers but of supporting the settlement policy both militarily and economically over the decades.

Following a threat by a settler to kill Israeli soldiers, outgoing Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert told his Cabinet during its weekly session that such violence would no longer be tolerated.

Defence Minister Ehud Barak added, "These riots and public disturbances are extremely grave, and their objective is to undermine the authority of the state and its ability to impose order on its citizens."

But Israeli human rights organisations accuse their government of turning a blind eye to settler attacks on Palestinian civilians and their property. Yesh Din released a report recently titled 'Justice for All?'. In the report the organisation stated that few of the probes into offences allegedly committed by Israeli soldiers and settlers against Palestinians in the occupied West Bank yield indictments.

The group's research director Lior Yavne told IPS, "Conviction rates for Israeli settlers and soldiers involved in violence against Palestinians are around six percent of cases opened, due to what we consider unprofessional investigations.

"In many instances the paperwork is either 'lost' or the police or military personnel involved in the investigations claim they are 'unable to identify the perpetrator'."

Sarit Michaeli from B'tselem also accused the Israeli authorities of being lenient on settlers accused of assaulting Palestinians, while being extremely harsh on Palestinian violence against settlers.

"Many times the authorities allow settler children to get away with attacks and stone throwing, claiming they are minors. The same doesn't apply to Palestinian juveniles who carry out attacks. The parents of settler children should be held accountable under international law," Michaeli told IPS.

Israeli President Shimon Peres during a recent visit to London questioned the consequences of firm action. "Israel will find it difficult to evacuate the settlements without a civil war," he said

pegwinn · #79 (**permalink**) 01-20-2009, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whatthe

There's plenty of hate to go around wherever the settlements spring up. A brief search will turn up (among other, more alarming images) video of settler children that appear to be as young as 8 or 9 throwing rocks at W Bank (Palestinians) and attempting to urinate on them/their property. Blame Hamas for wrecking Gaza, but to blame them for settler violence in the W Bank is ludicrous.

I didn't. I commented that moveing into a settlement "only creates a battle front line as you call it when Hamas starts shooting."

My beef is with terrorists who target civilians and also use them as shields and suicide mules. I could care less what they call themselves.

Jellah · #80 (**permalink**) 01-20-2009, 08:19 PM

Pegwinn how do you view the use of cluster bombs and white phosphorus on densely populated areas?

How do you feel about the Israeli govt using civilians to expand the borders of Israel (and act of war itself that places civilians on the battles front lines).

How do you feel about all the US military in the US hiding amongst the civilian population and even having civilians living right on military bases?

How do you feel about US elected political parties hiding among civilians...the same way Israeli politicians do...the same way Palestinian elected polictians do?

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