the end of the charade - Page 9

Jellah · #81 (**permalink**) 01-20-2009, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pegwinn

I didn't. I commented that moveing into a settlement "only creates a battle front line as you call it when Hamas starts shooting."

My beef is with terrorists who target civilians and also use them as shields and suicide mules. I could care less what they call themselves.

Do you have any comments about the IDF using civilians as human sheilds (including children...an 11 year old girl was one of them). Here is footage of them engaging in this and an Israeli human rights group discussing it.

YouTube - Israeli using Palestinian Kids as Human...

Whatthe · #82 (**permalink**) 01-21-2009, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pegwinn

I didn't. I commented that moveing into a settlement "only creates a battle front line as you call it when Hamas starts shooting."

My beef is with terrorists who target civilians and also use them as shields and suicide mules. I could care less what they call themselves.

I think it matters a great deal to you what label people use when engaged in criminal behavior. If they call themselves "Palestinian" their actions are terrorism, but if they call themselves "Security forces, IDF, or settlers etc " you'll always find a way to rationalize their behavior even if it's criminal by the Israeli Govts own rulings. BTW, The settlements themselves are illegal, moving into or expanding one is a criminal act.

Quote:

On 6 October 2005, the High Court of Justice ruled that it was illegal for the IDF to use Palestinian civilians during military actions. The decision was made on a petition that B'Tselem and six other human rights organizations filed in 2002. The petition followed the IDF's use of Palestinian civilians as human shields since the beginning of the second intifada, primarily during IDF operations carried out in Palestinian population centers, as occurred in Operation Defensive Shield.

The method is the same each time: soldiers pick a civilian at random and force him to protect them by doing dangerous tasks that put his life at risk. For example, soldiers have ordered Palestinians to:

* enter buildings to check if they are booby-trapped, or to remove the occupants
* remove suspicious objects from roads used by the army
* stand inside houses where soldiers have set up military positions, so that Palestinians will not fire at the soldiers
* walk in front of soldiers to shield them from gunfire, while the soldiers hold a gun behind their backs and sometimes fire over their shoulders.

The soldiers in the field did not initiate this practice; rather, the order to use civilians as a means of protection was made by senior army officials.

Despite the High Court’s decision and army orders preceding and following it, security forces continue to use Palestinians as human shields. In 2007, for example, B'Tselem documented twelve such cases.

pegwinn · #83 (**permalink**) 01-21-2009, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jellah

Pegwinn how do you view the use of cluster bombs and white phosphorus on densely populated areas? I don't like it. I know that the US has done it as well. Didn't like it then and I was in uniform. The only advantage is that it saves lives on one side of the equation. If the terrorists came out of hiding and fought like men...... who knows?
How do you feel about the Israeli govt using civilians to expand the borders of Israel (and act of war itself that places civilians on the battles front lines). Not sure about an act of war. Is the territory recognised as Israeli? If so, then how can it be an act of war?

How do you feel about all the US military in the US hiding amongst the civilian population and even having civilians living right on military bases? Nice try, but you are not even close.
How do you feel about US elected political parties hiding among civilians...the same way Israeli politicians do...the same way Palestinian elected polictians do? So long as they are not lobbing rockets I'd say there is a fundamental difference between hiding/living.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jellah

Do you have any comments about the IDF using civilians as human sheilds (including children...an 11 year old girl was one of them). Here is footage of them engaging in this and an Israeli human rights group discussing it.

YouTube - Israeli using Palestinian Kids as Human Shields

If the video was accurate then the soldiers need to be charged and a court martial convened. Same as if one of my Marines did it. Individual acts do not make for official policy.

calmObserver · #84 (**permalink**) 01-21-2009, 11:54 AM

back to the title of this thread; Israeli High Court Overturns Ban on Arab Parties

sabin · #85 (**permalink**) 01-21-2009, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calmObserver

back to the title of this thread; Israeli High Court Overturns Ban on Arab Parties

Well that's good news after all isn't it.

Jellah · #86 (**permalink**) 01-21-2009, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pegwinn

If the video was accurate then the soldiers need to be charged and a court martial convened. Same as if one of my Marines did it. Individual acts do not make for official policy.

Its happened too many times and it has also been found to be an order that has come from superior officers...so I wouldnt say this is some individual isolated incident.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pegwinn

I don't like it. I know that the US has done it as well. Didn't like it then and I was in uniform. The only advantage is that it saves lives on one side of the equation. If the terrorists came out of hiding and fought like men...... who knows?

If terrorists came out of hiding and fought like men? How about this then....what if the IDF dropped their superior weapons and stood toe to toe in a FAIR fight where each side has the same amount of power.

How is hiding behind superior weapons any better or braver????

Are you saying that a civilian life should be sacraficed to save a soldiers life?

Quote:

Originally Posted by pegwinn

Not sure about an act of war. Is the territory recognised as Israeli? If so, then how can it be an act of war?

Recognized by who? The international law doesnt recognize it as Israels....Israel just takes and doesnt ask and refuses to declare borders. They are in violation of international law though and the UN recognizes that its Palestinian territory.....and if we disregard international law and the UN...then we would also have to disregard the UN partition that created Israel in the first place as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pegwinn

Nice try, but you are not even close.

I am too close! I myself have lived near bases and my sister was married to a man in the army and they lived ON THE BASE in military housing ON THE BASE.

Just take a gander at Virginia Beach and Norfolk....all kinds of military bases within residential areas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pegwinn

So long as they are not lobbing rockets I'd say there is a fundamental difference between hiding/living.

Both Israel and the US govt are lobbing MUCH more lethal weapons that mere rockets!!! They are dropping bombs, using white phosphorus, cluster bombs, tanks, F16's, etc etc. Our politicians dont have to do it personally...they have power and can make others do it, but its upon their orders that its all done.

Jellah · #87 (**permalink**) 01-21-2009, 08:48 PM

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/22/op...gewanted=print

Quote:

I always felt queasy about using civilians to protect us. It didn't seem to me that we had the right to put someone else's life in danger to protect our own. I voiced my reservations on occasion, but nothing changed.

Sometime during the years that followed, the pointer and roadblock clearers evolved into something even more questionable: the human shield. Soldiers who had to raid a house or patrol a dangerous stretch of road would grab a nearby civilian and place him in front of them. Unlike the pointer, this civilian had no function other than to protect Israeli soldiers.

According to Btselem, the Israel Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories, the practice was not a grassroots initiative. It was an army policy, handed down to soldiers by their superior officers. The routine became much more widespread in April 2002, when Israel reoccupied the West Bank in response to a wave of Palestinian suicide bombings and other acts of violence against Israeli civilians.

In August of that year, a Palestinian man, Nidal Abu Mohsen, was killed while serving as a human shield. Israeli human rights organizations filed suit to halt the practice, and last October, the Supreme Court handed down its ruling banning its use.

Many in the army were upset. They felt they had been robbed of a tool that made their jobs safer, and which helped the commanders protect the lives of their soldiers.

Using Palestinian civilians (including children) is not some isolated incident but has most certainly been POLICY.

A few more specific incidents and the details here...

http://www.btselem.org/english/Human...Beit_Hanun.asp

http://www.btselem.org/english/human..._in_nablus.asp

And Senior IDF officers complaining about the court outlawing the practice!

http://www.metimes.com/International...r_kosher/1713/

Quote:

Senior IDF officers, too, said that the ruling could not only endanger soldiers, but also put more Palestinian civilians at risk. In future incursions when the 'neighbor practice' will not be employed, they said, Palestinians risk increasing house demolitions and greater force during arrests, in order to ensure the protection of IDF soldiers.

There is, however, no available 'hard' evidence to suggest that the use of human shields has decreased either bloodshed or the excessive use of force in prior incursions.

pegwinn · #88 (**permalink**) 01-21-2009, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jellah

Its happened too many times and it has also been found to be an order that has come from superior officers...so I wouldnt say this is some individual isolated incident. Then, court martial the officer who issued the orders. BTW, in the US Military, the troops are trained to recognise unlawful orders as well. So, the "I was only following...... " defense doesn't work as well. Contesting an unlawful order is definitly a study in moral courage. You have to prove the order is unlawful.

If terrorists came out of hiding and fought like men? How about this then....what if the IDF dropped their superior weapons and stood toe to toe in a FAIR fight where each side has the same amount of power. How about this then.... what if HAMAS created a professional military and fought according to the rules of war? BTW, I think that if the IDF offered your "fair fight" challenge, Hamas would receive a very public beating, which explains why they prefer to fight women and kids.

How is hiding behind superior weapons any better or braver???? How is hiding in mosques, hospitals, targeting women and children, and using kids for suicide bombings any better or braver????

Are you saying that a civilian life should be sacraficed to save a soldiers life? Are you saying that a civilian life should be sacraficed so that you don't have to face the soldier in battle?

Recognized by who? The international law doesnt recognize it as Israels....Israel just takes and doesnt ask and refuses to declare borders. They are in violation of international law though and the UN recognizes that its Palestinian territory.....and if we disregard international law and the UN...then we would also have to disregard the UN partition that created Israel in the first place as well. That was the question. Is Palestine a recognized nation with borders etc? I may need to hunt a map but I always thought the Palestinians were a factions physically located inside Israel who want the Israelis to give up land for peace. If I am wrong, help me out.

I am too close! I myself have lived near bases and my sister was married to a man in the army and they lived ON THE BASE in military housing ON THE BASE. Bet I have more time living on bases than you do. Still, your comparison is merely a redirect attempt. This is about Israel/Palestine remember?

Just take a gander at Virginia Beach and Norfolk....all kinds of military bases within residential areas. Been there yadablahetc. LFTCLANT

Both Israel and the US govt are lobbing MUCH more lethal weapons that mere rockets!!! They are dropping bombs, using white phosphorus, cluster bombs, tanks, F16's, etc etc. Our politicians dont have to do it personally...they have power and can make others do it, but its upon their orders that its all done.

I left the last para untouched. The question is: Yeah, so? What would you have Israel do? You are obviously sympathising with Hamas and I with Israel. So, Jellahamas, tell PEIsrael what I have to do to have peace.

Jellah · #89 (**permalink**) 01-22-2009, 04:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pegwinn

Then, court martial the officer who issued the orders. BTW, in the US Military, the troops are trained to recognise unlawful orders as well. So, the "I was only following...... " defense doesn't work as well. Contesting an unlawful order is definitly a study in moral courage. You have to prove the order is unlawful.

As you can see the Israeli court had to address this practice quite specifically and the IDF complained about this being illegal. That tells you that this is an official practice and not some isolated incident.

You were complaining about hiding behind civilians but dont seem to ready to condemn Israels practice of doing so...you seem to want to write it off to some isolated incident, which it isnt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pegwinn

How about this then.... what if HAMAS created a professional military and fought according to the rules of war? BTW, I think that if the IDF offered your "fair fight" challenge, Hamas would receive a very public beating, which explains why they prefer to fight women and kids.

Hamas cant create a professional military...the US and Israel prevent that and dont allow it.

I am quite sure Palestinians would love the idea of having the kind of military power, equipment and support that Israel recieve.....but we both know that they wouldnt be allowed to gain any equality in such an area.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pegwinn

How is hiding in mosques, hospitals, targeting women and children, and using kids for suicide bombings any better or braver????

First of all, I dont know that they are "hiding" in any of those places...this hasnt been shown to be the case. I know that they are the govt of a civilian population who was elected by that population and thats why they defend and fight there.

Although I dont agree with suicide bombings...its certainly more brave to knowingly give up your life for your cause than to bomb a bunch of civilians and then go home for dinner!

Quote:

Originally Posted by pegwinn

That was the question. Is Palestine a recognized nation with borders etc? I may need to hunt a map but I always thought the Palestinians were a factions physically located inside Israel who want the Israelis to give up land for peace. If I am wrong, help me out.

The UN recognized Israel with specifc partition plan...Israel has gone beyond that and taken land from an occupied people...its illegal according to international law. The areas are recognized to be Palestinian territories.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pegwinn

Bet I have more time living on bases than you do. Still, your comparison is merely a redirect attempt. This is about Israel/Palestine remember?

There was no redirect..you claimed the combatant wing of Hamas hid amongst a civilian population...I simply pointed out to you that they are located among their civilian population just like our own military is. If any nation were to attack the US and target military installations...they will also end up hitting civilian targets because the bases are also among the civilian population AND there is civilian population who live directly on the bases as well.

My point to you is that they dont do anything we dont do ourselves so why is it so horrendous for them yet so acceptable of us?

Quote:

Originally Posted by pegwinn

I left the last para untouched. The question is: Yeah, so? What would you have Israel do? You are obviously sympathising with Hamas and I with Israel. So, Jellahamas, tell PEIsrael what I have to do to have peace.

So you have a "yea so what" attitude about Israel and the US attacks with white phosphorus and cluster bombs but have such a huge problem with rockets??? Your double standards and hypocrisy are clear!

I would also say when you stoop to the level of discourse that says "Jellahamas" you are simply illustrating how hard it is for you to have civil discourse when you disagree..no worries, I am not going to stoop down there along side you. I choose to remain civil and discuss like an adult and have no need to play silly games with your screen name or any other sorts of nonsense like that. Is that really the way you wish to represent yourself? I had thought a bit better of you than that previously.

pegwinn · #90 (**permalink**) 01-22-2009, 04:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jellah

So you have a "yea so what" attitude about Israel and the US attacks with white phosphorus and cluster bombs but have such a huge problem with rockets??? Your double standards and hypocrisy are clear! I have a problem with the policy of deliberately targeting civilians. I have said that all along as you have meandered about the area attempting to paint the US and Israel in the same colors as Hamas. I'm not sure how to be any more clear

I would also say when you stoop to the level of discourse that says "Jellahamas" you are simply illustrating how hard it is for you to have civil discourse when you disagree..no worries, I am not going to stoop down there along side you. I choose to remain civil and discuss like an adult and have no need to play silly games with your screen name or any other sorts of nonsense like that. Is that really the way you wish to represent yourself? I had thought a bit better of you than that previously.

If you are/were offended then I apologise. The intent was to drive home the fundamental difference in our positions. You support Hamas. I don't. Taking your support in mind tell me how there is supposed to be peace.

And, somehow you seem to think that I support using human shields. I've already said I don't. To restate: Courts Martial are appropriate for those issuing such orders and for those carrying out the acts.

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