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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 02-07-2007, 09:00 AM
abu-afak abu-afak is offline
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Default Word-Weaseling indeed.. but by Arab/ists/Anti-Israelers

Quote:
Originally Posted by abu-afak";p=&quot View Post
"..Lord Caradon, interviewed on Kol Israel in February 1973:

Question: "This matter of the (definite) article which is there in French and is missing in English, is that really significant?"

Answer: "The purposes are perfectly clear, the principle is stated in the preamble, the necessity for withdrawal is stated in the operative section. And then the essential phrase which is not sufficiently recognized is that withdrawal should take place to secure and recognized boundaries, and these words were very carefully chosen: they have to be secure and they have to be recognized. They will not be secure unless they are recognized. And that is why one has to work for agreement. This is essential. I would defend absolutely what we did.
It was not for us to lay down exactly where the border should be. I know the 1967 border very well. It is not a satisfactory border, it is where troops had to stop in 1947, just where they happened to be that night, that is not a permanent boundary...



Mr. Michael Stewart, Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, in reply to a question in Parliament, 17 November 1969:

Question: "What is the British interpretation of the wording of the 1967 Resolution? Does the Right Honourable Gentleman understand it to mean that the Israelis should withdraw from all territories taken in the late war?"

Mr. Stewart: "No, Sir. That is not the phrase used in the Resolution. The Resolution speaks of secure and recognized boundaries. These words must be read Concurrently with the statement on withdrawal."...."



Mr. George Brown, British Foreign Secretary in 1967, on 19 January 1970:

"I have been asked over and over again to clarify, modify or improve the wording, but I do not intend to do that. The phrasing of the Resolution was very carefully worked out, and it was a difficult and complicated exercise to get it accepted by the UN Security Council. "I formulated the Security Council Resolution. Before we submitted it to the Council, we showed it to Arab leaders.
The proposal said 'Israel will withdraw from territories that were occupied', and Not from 'the' territories, which means that Israel will NOT withdraw from all the territories." (The Jerusalem Post, 23.1.70)

USA

Mr. Joseph Sisco, Assistant Secretary of State, 12 July 1970 (NBC "Meet the Press"):

"That Resolution did not say 'withdrawal to the pre-June 5 lines'. The Resolution said that the parties must negotiate to achieve agreement on the so-called final secure and recognized borders. In other words, the question of the final borders is a matter of negotiations between the parties."



Eugene V. Rostow, Professor of Law/Public Affairs, Yale University.. 1967, was US Under-Secretary of State for Political Affairs:

a) "... Paragraph 1 (i) of the Resolution calls for the withdrawal of Israeli armed forces 'from territories occupied in the recent conflict', and Not 'from the territories occupied in the recent conflict'.
Repeated attempts to amend this sentence by inserting the word 'the' Failed in the Security Council. It is, therefore, Not legally possible to assert that the provision requires Israeli withdrawal from all the territories now occupied under the cease-fire resolutions to the Armistice Demarcation lines."

USSR

- Mr. Vasily Kuznetsov said in discussions that preceded the adoption of Resolution 242:

" ... phrases such as 'secure and recognized boundaries'. What does that mean? What boundaries are these? Secure, recognized - by whom, for what? Who is going to judge how secure they are? Who must recognize them? ... there is certainly much leeway for different interpretations which retain for Israel the right to establish new boundaries and to withdraw its troops only as far as the lines which it judges convenient." (S/PV. 1373, p. 112, of 9.11.67)

+More at link below

http://christianactionforisrael.org/un/242b.html

How True Vasily. How true.

Klippy please note underlined portions above as they explain how 242 should be read- and the whole rest of the Direct quotes of all the main authors explains the balance of the Intent.
Pretty UNambiguous I'd say.. and no weaseling at all except for the initial Arab rejection and the subsequent! Weaseling acceptance.

.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 02-07-2007, 11:42 AM
ashleykennedy ashleykennedy is offline
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Default How much more boring can you get?

3 votes out of how many was that Abu. But you dont believe in democracy do you???

The Security Council;

Expressing its continuing concern with the grave situation in the Middle East,

Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war and the need to work for a just and lasting peace in which every State in the area can live in security,

Emphasizing further that all Member States in their acceptance of the Charter of the United Nations have undertaken a commitment to act in accordance with Article 2 of the Charter,

Affirms that the fulfillment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles:

Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;

Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;

Affirms further the necessity

For guaranteeing freedom of navigation through international waterways in the area;

For achieving a just settlement of the refugee problem;

For guaranteeing the territorial inviolability and political independence of every State in the area, through measures including the establishment of demilitarized zones;

Requests the Secretary General to designate a Special Representative to proceed to the Middle East to establish and maintain contacts with the States concerned in order to promote agreement and assist efforts to achieve a peaceful and accepted settlement in accordance with the provisions and principles in this resolution;

Requests the Secretary-General to report to the Security Council on the progress of the efforts of the Special Representative as soon as possible.

Oh wow you lost the debate again and again and again.

Soviet Union maintained that there would be no direct talks with Israel (in keeping with the Khartoum Resolution), and that withdrawals were a pre-condition for any further talks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jarring_Mission

Strike the USSR.

The Rogers Plan

The Israeli interpretation of the plan was that it required Israel to withdraw from areas captured during the Six-Day War without any assurances of a lasting peace from Arab states. There was also considerable resistance among Israelis about the status of Jerusalem. As a result, the Israeli government determined that support of the plan would be "irresponsible."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogers_plan

Strike the USA.

So now you are left with the UK version of interpretation against how many now.

Bye bye Abu you're out.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 02-25-2007, 10:30 AM
abu-afak abu-afak is offline
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January 15, 2007

Security Council Resolution 242 According to its Drafters


After the 1967 Six Day War, when Israel prevented an attempt by surrounding Arab nations to destroy it militarily, the United Nations Security Council prepared a carefully-worded resolution to guide the parties. Since then, U.N. Resolution 242 has been invoked as the centerpiece for negotiation efforts, including the Israeli-Egyptian Camp David Accords, the Oslo Accords and the Road Map peace plan.

But while many sources correctly describe the wording and intent of Resolution 242, others have misrepresented it as requiring Israel to return to the pre-1967 lines – the armistice lines established after Israel’s War of Independence.

Such an interpretation was explicitly not the intention of the framers of 242, nor does the language of the resolution include any such requirement.

Sometimes, the misrepresentations are redressed, as was the case when the New York Times and others corrected errors about the resolution. In other cases, inaccurate characterizations still await formal correction, as is the case with Jimmy Carter’s repeated distortion of the resolution in his book, Palestine: Peace not Apartheid.

Below are statements by the main drafters of Resolution 242 – Lord Caradon, Eugene Rostow, Arthur Goldberg and Baron George-Brown – as well as others, in which the meaning and history of Resolution 242 are explained.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lord Caradon (Hugh M. Foot) was the permanent representative of the United Kingdom to the United Nations, 1964-1970, and chief drafter of Resolution 242.

• Institute for the Study of Diplomacy, U.N. Security Council Resolution 242, pg. 13, qtd. in Egypt’s Struggle for Peace: Continuity and Change, 1967-1977, Yoram Meital, pg. 49:

Much play has been made of the fact that we didn’t say “the” territories or “all the” territories. But that was deliberate. I myself knew very well the 1967 boundaries and if we had put in the “the” or “all the” that could only have meant that we wished to see the 1967 boundaries perpetuated in the form of a permanent frontier. This I was certainly NOT prepared to recommend.


• Journal of Palestine Studies, “An Interview with Lord Caradon,” Spring - Summer 1976, pgs 144-45:

Q. The basis for any settlement will be United Nations Security Council Resolution 242, of which you were the architect. Would you say there is a contradiction between the part of the resolution that stresses the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war and that which calls for Israeli withdrawal from “occupied territories,” but not from “the occupied territories”?

A. I defend the resolution as it stands. What it states, as you know, is first the general principle of inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war. That means that you can’t justify holding onto territory merely because you conquered it. We could have said: well, you go back to the 1967 line. But I know the 1967 line, and it’s a rotten line.
You couldn’t have a worse line for a permanent international boundary. It’s where the troops happened to be on a certain night in 1948. It’s got no relation to the needs of the situation.

HAD we said that you must go back to the 1967 line, which would have resulted if we had specified a retreat from all the occupied territories, we would have been wrong. In New York, what did we know about Tayyibe and Qalqilya? If we had attempted in New York to draw a new line, we would have been rather vague. So what we stated was the principle that you couldn’t hold territory because you conquered it, therefore there must be a withdrawal to – let’s read the words carefully – “secure and recognized boundaries.” The can only be secure if they are recognized. The boundaries have to be agreed; it’s only when you get agreement that you get security. I think that now people begin to realize what we had in mind – that security doesn’t come from arms, it doesn’t come from territory, it doesn’t come from geography, it doesn’t come from one side domination the other, it can only come from agreement and mutual respect and understanding.

Therefore, what we did, I think, was right; what the resolution said was right and I would stand by it. It needs to be added to now, of course. ... We didn’t attempt to deal with [the questions of the Palestinians and of Jerusalem] then, but merely to state the general principles of the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war. We meant that the occupied territories could not be held merely because they were occupied, but we deliberately did not say that the old line, where the troops happened to be on that particular night many years ago, was an ideal demarcation line.


• MacNeil/Lehrer Report, March 30, 1978:

We didn't say there should be a withdrawal to the '67 line; we did not put the “the” in, we did not say “all the territories” deliberately. We all knew that the boundaries of '67 were not drawn as permanent frontiers, they were a cease-fire line of a couple of decades earlier... . We did Not say that the '67 boundaries must be forever.



• Daily Star (Beirut), June 12, 1974. Qtd. in Myths and Facts, Leonard J. Davis, pg. 48:

It would have been wrong to demand that Israel return to its positions of 4 June 1967 because those positions were undesirable and artificial. After all, they were just the places the soldiers of each side happened to be the day the fighting stopped in 1948. They were just armistice lines. That's why we didN'T demand that the Israelis return to them and I think we were right not to ...

• Interview on Kol Israel radio, February 1973, qtd. on Web site of Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs:

Q. This matter of the (definite) article which is there in French and is missing in English, is that really significant?

A. The purposes are perfectly clear, the principle is stated in the preamble, the necessity for withdrawal is stated in the operative section. And then the essential phrase which is not sufficiently recognized is that withdrawal should take place to secure and recognized boundaries, and these words were very carefully chosen: they have to be secure and they have to be recognized. They will not be secure unless they are recognized. And that is why one has to work for agreement. This is essential. I would defend absolutely what we did. It was not for us to lay down exactly where the border should be. I know the 1967 border very well. It is not a satisfactory border, it is where troops had to stop in 1947, just where they happened to be that night, that is not a permanent boundary... ."


[.......]


http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_co...x_article=1267
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 02-26-2007, 10:41 AM
ashleykennedy ashleykennedy is offline
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Default Has Israel got borders?

The biggest problem is that Israel do not recognise their borders, so why should anyone else.

Israel sends settlers across what are thought to be borders by the international community, and then builds an insecurity fence. Is Israel going to abandon those settlers? If not then Israel does not recognise it own borders.

Would the borders put forward in the Partition plan of 1947 be more secure?

Resolution 242 also calls for the Palestinians to have secure borders.

All your posts Abu assume that only Israel is to have security.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 02-26-2007, 05:40 PM
GovernmentCheese GovernmentCheese is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashleykennedy";p=&quot View Post
The biggest problem is that Israel do not recognise their borders, so why should anyone else.

Israel sends settlers across what are thought to be borders by the international community, and then builds an insecurity fence. Is Israel going to abandon those settlers? If not then Israel does not recognise it own borders.

Would the borders put forward in the Partition plan of 1947 be more secure?

Resolution 242 also calls for the Palestinians to have secure borders.

All your posts Abu assume that only Israel is to have security.
According to wiki:

"The United Nations resolutions, including 242, consider the area under Israeli occupation from which Israel should withdraw (extent disputed) under a peace treaty. (See Current status below)."
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golan_Heights

So exactly what peace treaty between Palestine and Israel since then can you cite that has been upheld since its implementation? There is none. You can blame whoever you want on it. I think it is Satan's work .
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 02-27-2007, 12:17 PM
ashleykennedy ashleykennedy is offline
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Default Oslo Accords

Quote:
Originally Posted by GovernmentCheese";p=&quot View Post

So exactly what peace treaty between Palestine and Israel since then can you cite that has been upheld since its implementation? There is none. You can blame whoever you want on it. I think it is Satan's work .
The Oslo Accords.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 09-07-2007, 06:41 PM
abu-afak abu-afak is offline
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Default Unlike klitkaps genera/EMPTY claim about 'Myths'

Had to defensively start his strings.

He couldn't debate the truth of mine Loaded with info - so just started his own to the contrary with NO facts, just assertions!
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 09-08-2007, 02:28 PM
ashleykennedy ashleykennedy is offline
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Default I will enjoy the sport.

Quote:
Originally Posted by abu-afak";p=&quot View Post
Had to defensively start his strings.

He couldn't debate the truth of mine Loaded with info - so just started his own to the contrary with NO facts, just assertions!
I don't know why you have tried to revive old strings where you got a pasting?

Still I will enjoy the sport.

I see you are still unoriginal spewing the same copy paste blather as though saying something twenty times will turn a lie into a truth.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 09-08-2007, 04:22 PM
abu-afak abu-afak is offline
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Default No takers on the facts as always

Just spamming up Lies and empty 'Zionist Myth' strings while I put meat on my Mythbusters.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 09-09-2007, 01:14 AM
ashleykennedy ashleykennedy is offline
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Default Afak is "Just spamming"...... again

Quote:
Originally Posted by abu-afak";p=&quot View Post
Just spamming.
Copy paste spam again Afak. Same line in all posts. No change from you.

Get back to your conspiracy theory corner.

There's no meat just froth Afak.
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