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Old 05-04-2007, 01:24 PM
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Default Spies and Lies

Perfidy: Israel's Role in the Pollard Case
By Esther Pollard May 2, 2007

From a Speech at Midreshet Moriah - April 29, 2007

Quote:
Successive Prime Ministers have always maintained that the Government of Israel has done, and continues to do, everything in its power to bring all of Israel's captives home. But is this true? Can we believe our leaders when they tell us that they are doing everything to bring Jonathan Pollard and all of our boys home? Is it even possible to investigate?

Israel's captives, Ron Arad, Tzvi Feldman, Yehuda Katz, Zarcharia Baumel, Guy Hever, Gilad Shalit, Ehud Goldwasser, Eldad Regev, and of course, my husband Jonathan Pollard, have been in captivity some for as long as 25 years, and others for a matter of months. We do not know what happened, and what is currently happening to most of our captives and MIAs. We do not know, for the most part, where they are, who is holding them, and what has ultimately been their fate.
http://web.israelinsider.com/Views/11289.htm

An Extravagant Waste

Quote:
The Lavi project is one of the most extravagant and wasteful deals the U.S. government carried out with Israel. The aircraft had no value whatever to U.S. defense needs and was built strictly for Israeli purposes, but the U.S. Treasury financed 90 percent of its total $1.5 billion price tag.

Israel turned the U.S. $1.5 billion boondoggle into a bonanza of at least $5 billion for its own coffers, and in the process bit hard the American hand that has been feeding Israel so generously for 40 years. The stolen technology will give China a decided edge over nearby Russia. It will also complicate America's long-standing mission to protect the security of South Korea and Japan.

Confronted recently about the secret and unlawful sale to China, the late Prime Minister Rabin answered limply: "I believe we can explain that."

Even though Yitzhak Shamir, leader of the Likud party, was prime minister when the duplicity began, Rabin could hardly claim innocence. He served Shamir as defense minister while the technology transfer was underway. As former chief of staff of Israeli military services and thoroughly experienced in Israel's intelligence activity, Rabin would almost certainly have been aware of the project.

In selling the technology to China, Israel violated a solemn agreement with the U.S. government. The United States gave the secret technology to Israel during its costly and ill-fated plan to produce a new fighter named the Lavi. It was donated under severe restrictions. The technology could be used only on the Lavi project and under no circumstances transferred to another government.

Midway in the ill-fated Lavi project, U.S. Rep. Nick Rahall offered an amendment to eliminate $250 million in funding, arguing that U.S. financing made no sense. If successful, the Lavi would be a direct competitor to the U.S. aircraft industry and take jobs from American workers. Rahall received the support of 39 other congressmen but that constituted less than ten percent of those voting. In a telling demonstration of the efficiency of the U.S. lobby for Israeli interests, those who voted for the Rahall amendment were thoroughly hassled by pro-Israel constituents.

The Lavi affair is not the first time Israel has sold secret U.S. technology to a potentially unfriendly power. Shamir transferred secret data to the Soviet Union that naval intelligence employee Jonathan Pollard, Israel's paid spy, had stolen from U.S. Defense Department files. Shamir made the transfer in an attempt to persuade the Soviet Union to release more Soviet Jews to Israel.

When Pollard was caught red-handed and put in jail, the state of Israel claimed it was a "rogue operation," unknown to officials at the cabinet level. Investigation showed that defense, military and other senior officials were fully informed. Pollard had two official Israeli handlers, and although promising full cooperation in the prosecution of the case, the Israeli government refused to order the extradition of either handler. Both were subsequently promoted—not punished. The Israeli government provided $200,000 toward legal costs encountered by Pollard and his wife.
http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/0296/9602019.html

The cost just go up and never come down.
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Old 05-07-2007, 11:47 AM
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[quote="ashleykennedy";p="369787"]
Quote:
Successive Prime Ministers have always maintained that the Government of Israel has done, and continues to do, everything in its power to bring all of Israel's captives home. But is this true? Can we believe our leaders when they tell us that they are doing everything to bring Jonathan Pollard and all of our boys home? Is it even possible to investigate?
Interesting op-ed piece. I will say that the Jonathan Pollard case is extremely sad. Really more regarding the US than Israel. It's not like Israel hasn't caught members of US delegations trying to recruit Israelis. We just brush it under the carpet. But the US keeps a guy in solitary for 23 or so years over the same thing. Hypocracy is a word the US should look up. But the question is, what should Israel do to set him free ? Release US prisoners in Israeli jails ? No, we simply deport badly behaved Americans. And as for trading terrorists etc for our captured boys, how bad a policy is that ?! It's positive reinforcement of bad behaviour. The US doesn't negotiate with terror groups, but you expect Israel to ?! You think that releasing 3 of our boys is worth releasing thousands of attempted murderers ?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashleykennedy";p=&quot View Post
We do not know what happened, and what is currently happening to most of our captives and MIAs. We do not know, for the most part, where they are, who is holding them, and what has ultimately been their fate.
Well your husband is in a US jail. You can visist him anytime. As for those captured by our local foes, take it up with the UN. Whereas those captured by Israel can be checked upon, the same can certainly not be said about the treatment of our boys. So we should conceed to these guys because they dont abide by POW conventions ?!

These sights are a hoot !! Please tell me that you think they are remotely balanced. The bottom listed sight actually sells Palestinian art. No one elses, just Palestinian. And it's clearly markes as "views" which leads me to believe that there is very little in the way of facts in the entire article. Let's get to it than ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashleykennedy";p=&quot View Post
The Lavi project is one of the most extravagant and wasteful deals the U.S. government carried out with Israel. The aircraft had no value whatever to U.S. defense needs and was built strictly for Israeli purposes, but the U.S. Treasury financed 90 percent of its total $1.5 billion price tag.
The Lavi was a wonderful project. Light strike aircraft that was superior to the F16 in many ways. As for the pricetag, the US gives Israel a defense budget. What we do with it is up to us. We where not in any way shape or form in any violation of anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashleykennedy";p=&quot View Post
Israel turned the U.S. $1.5 billion boondoggle into a bonanza of at least $5 billion for its own coffers, and in the process bit hard the American hand that has been feeding Israel so generously for 40 years.
How did it turn 1.5 into 5 again ? I know, details don't matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashleykennedy";p=&quot View Post
The stolen technology will give China a decided edge over nearby Russia. It will also complicate America's long-standing mission to protect the security of South Korea and Japan.
What stolen technology ? The Lavi is built on stolen technology ? LOL !! And to blame the woes in the Far East on Israel is insanely laughable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashleykennedy";p=&quot View Post
Confronted recently about the secret and unlawful sale to China, the late Prime Minister Rabin answered limply: "I believe we can explain that."
I'd love to find that entire dialogue. Talk about quoting out of context. And if the US is that woride about China, maybe it shouldn't be the US' #1 trade partner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashleykennedy";p=&quot View Post
In selling the technology to China, Israel violated a solemn agreement with the U.S. government. The United States gave the secret technology to Israel during its costly and ill-fated plan to produce a new fighter named the Lavi. It was donated under severe restrictions. The technology could be used only on the Lavi project and under no circumstances transferred to another government.
1st of all you seem to believe that Israel is full of idiots that need US tech. Guess again. Israel engineered the chip that is probably running your computer or laptop. We have the #1 per capita degree holders in the world. So please be specific as to what technology we are talking about. Keep in mind that if I had the money, I could order an F-16 from numerous sources. The US happily markets it's technology to just about anyone.
As for the "ill-fated" Lavi, we did build it. Two in fact. My friend's father was a test pilot in that project. The only reason it stopped was in order not to compete with US sales interest. You're welcome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashleykennedy";p=&quot View Post
Rahall received the support of 39 other congressmen but that constituted less than ten percent of those voting. In a telling demonstration of the efficiency of the U.S. lobby for Israeli interests, those who voted for the Rahall amendment were thoroughly hassled by pro-Israel constituents.
Define the word "hassled" for me please. You are telling me that a country of 6 million or so held sway over 90% of the US Congress ? That's simply amazing !!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashleykennedy";p=&quot View Post
The Lavi affair is not the first time Israel has sold secret U.S. technology to a potentially unfriendly power. Shamir transferred secret data to the Soviet Union that naval intelligence employee Jonathan Pollard, Israel's paid spy, had stolen from U.S. Defense Department files. Shamir made the transfer in an attempt to persuade the Soviet Union to release more Soviet Jews to Israel.
Not 100% sure what Pollard did in reality. As I understood it, it was information about Iraq that the US was witholding from Israel, it's ally. Spying does go on both ways. Wanna bet that the Arab/Muslem nations have spies (and terror cells) in the US ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashleykennedy";p=&quot View Post
The Israeli government provided $200,000 toward legal costs encountered by Pollard and his wife.
Of course the Israeli government knew about it. Of course the powers that be in the US know that they have tried, and probably succeeded sometimes, in recruiting spies in Israel. And yes, Israel does help withthe cost. Not certain what the point of this is. Everyone spies on everyone. Ain't that just the pot calling the kettle black.

Seriously Ash. Could you find more sketchy, anti-Israel sources ?!
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Old 05-07-2007, 12:34 PM
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Default I prefer AMD.

What, you want me to use only Israeli approved sites only?

The link between the two was the repackaging of US material for sale to third parties. Pollards sent on to Russia for the continued emigration of Jews out of Russia. CIA had operatives executed in Russia as a consequence, it wasn't just the radio Int that got him a life sentence.

The Lavi bit was just to amuse and give you something to play with.

I use AMD not Pentium.
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Old 05-08-2007, 09:33 AM
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You know what all this stems from? a believe that Israel and America
have a hidden agenda to take over the world. To shorten the phrase
a bit "Europe's Anti-American Obsession" It's akin to having a fish bone
stuck in ones throat, you can't swallow it, yet you can't spit it out.

And it don't look like it's ever going to get dislodged anytime soon.
choke on that for awhile.


.
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Old 05-08-2007, 11:17 AM
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Default The US is a Joke.

Quote:
Originally Posted by proof-hunter";p=&quot View Post
You know what all this stems from? a believe that Israel and America have a hidden agenda to take over the world. To shorten the phrase a bit "Europe's Anti-American Obsession" It's akin to having a fish bone stuck in ones throat, you can't swallow it, yet you can't spit it out.

And it don't look like it's ever going to get dislodged any time soon.
choke on that for awhile.
Another assumption that's wrong. for someone with a name like proof hunter you find an awful lot of garbage to sprout about without any proof.

Here's an idea Drop the r and put an s at the front and get rid of the hunter completely.

As Israel has not been capable of dealing with the Palestinians in 60 years I don't think they have the ability to take over the world , do you spoof?

As the US has a double dumb for a President , the US is also incapable. They've had 4 years to finish Iraq so what chance of world domination. The US is a Joke.

Get real, spoof.
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Old 05-11-2007, 07:24 AM
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As Israel has not been capable of dealing with the Palestinians in 60 years I don't think they have the ability to take over the world , do you spoof?

You know why Israel can't solve their problem with the Palestinians? Because if Israel took real
measures to take care of the problem, the appeasers(Europe) would demonize Israel and the
Americans.

Which is why the people of Israel have to suffer to keep Europeans happy.
after all, we would not want to hurt those nice terrorists they call Europe's hamas


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Old 05-11-2007, 10:42 AM
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Default Wow so it's all Europe's fault.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spoof-punter";p=&quot View Post
As Israel has not been capable of dealing with the Palestinians in 60 years I don't think they have the ability to take over the world , do you spoof?

You know why Israel can't solve their problem with the Palestinians? Because if Israel took real measures to take care of the problem, the appeasers (Europe) would demonize Israel and the Americans.

Which is why the people of Israel have to suffer to keep Europeans happy.
after all, we would not want to hurt those nice terrorists they call Europe's hamas.
Wow so it's all Europe's fault. Nasty Europe wont let the peace loving Israelis carry out ethnic cleansing. Is this the European appeasers of the Zionist clique who murdered British soldiers?
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Old 05-12-2007, 12:01 AM
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Wow so it's all Europe's fault. Nasty Europe wont let the peace
loving Israelis carry out ethnic cleansing. Is this the European
appeasers of the Zionist clique who murdered British soldiers?


Did ethnic cleansing just pop into your head? or did you hear someone
say that in these posts. Ashely, your falling into the mold of what I called
the European American Obsession. here is how, you demonize only Israel
and America. same as the whole middle east, "Big Satan, Little Satan"
It's funny how you find your roots shared with the likes of Hamas and
Hezbollah. which is supported by Iran.

Now either you believe in the Jihad movement and support it's Ideology,
or your an absolute idiot and don't really see a problem with terror and
the goal of Islam. But i will give you the benefit of the doubt, and just
assume you really see no world danger. which truly make you blind.

I am sure though that you will live to see the day, that you wished you
seen it coming. But you will know just how Europe felt with Hitler and
history will make more sense to you then.


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Old 05-12-2007, 02:38 AM
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Default Osama Bin Laden is going to invade the US?

Quote:
Originally Posted by spoof-punter";p=&quot View Post
Wow so it's all Europe's fault. Nasty Europe wont let the peace loving Israelis carry out ethnic cleansing. Is this the European appeasers of the Zionist clique who murdered British soldiers?

Did ethnic cleansing just pop into your head? or did you hear someone say that in these posts. Ashley, your falling into the mold of what I called the European American Obsession. here is how, you demonize only Israel and America. same as the whole middle east, "Big Satan, Little Satan" It's funny how you find your roots shared with the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah. which are supported by Iran.
I take you've never heard of Avigdor Lieberman? or Operation Hiram, Sharon, Deir Yassin?

Is it an obsession when hypocrisy is noted in US policy? Why should I fit into some nice little mould of yours?

Funny how you always revert to middle eastern extremist terminology with reference to the "Satanic US."

I also have a go at Pinochet, Galtieri, Abu Nidal and stupidity etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spoof-punter";p=&quot View Post
Now either you believe in the Jihad movement and support it's Ideology, or your an absolute idiot and don't really see a problem with terror and the goal of Islam. But I will give you the benefit of the doubt, and just assume you really see no world danger. which truly make you blind.
"You're with us or agin us."

You need to get another set of assumptions the last set are crap.

No danger that cannot be dealt with without the normal fearful Repulsicon overreaction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spoof-punter";p=&quot View Post
I am sure though that you will live to see the day, that you wished you seen it coming. But you will know just how Europe felt with Hitler and history will make more sense to you then.
Chicken Little the sky is not Falling. The Muslim hordes are not invading. If your scared that Osama Bin Laden is going to invade the US and put you all in concentration camps I can't help you.
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Old 06-08-2007, 10:41 PM
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"You're with us or agin us."

You need to get another set of assumptions the last set are crap.

No danger that cannot be dealt with without the normal fearful Repulsicon overreaction.


Face it, Bin laden knew Europe very well. he also knows America very well.
He knew by how we were, that we no longer had the resolve, and knew that
now is the time that a pure political war would defeat America and Europe
with just 3 phases. the first phase will be completed when we pull out.

Mr Bin laden knows just what he's doing. He knows that they can't win a real
war using Army's and conventional weapons, because the west is to
powerful in this area. but alas, Allah has given weak resolve to the
infidels, who he knows would rather die then to see Innocent's die.
The time has now come to destroy the infidel using their own weakness
against them, in fact Allah has also made sure that the infidel's will divide against themselves and help the Jihads to destroy the infidel's.

The middle east is stronger then the whole free west. they have been in war
and conflicts for well over 2000 years, while the west became weak and
unwilling to be strong, if it means getting nasty at war fair. I am also sure
that Mr Bin Laden knew that Europe would turn on America, and help to
insure that America did not use it's full strength. all that's left is some push
now to finish the toppling of the free world.

"You're with us or agin us." is not factual, it's more or less comes
down to being united or divided. America will fully unite the middle east
when we pull out next year. Then the terror will begin to increase all over
the free world. I don't think we can even win this whole war on terror.
we don't have the wisdom to over come our own differences that truly
weaken us as a whole.
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