and your statement that the population of Dubai was actually the entire the population of UAE was the truth...

Whoops...liberalweenie is caught in a lie that he cannot deny.

No, you didn't. You tried to, but you failed.

Let's just look at some other middle eastern countries on this subject...

Hey, here's a shocker, workers are complaining about not getting paid in Qatar, and yet Qatar doesn't have 16% growth:

http://qatar.livejournal.com/224945.html

Hey, Sudan has massive slavery - yet they don't have 16% economic growth, now why is that if slave labor = massive economic growth?:

http://www.meforum.org/article/182

Check out our good ally Saudi Arabia - they even have reports of employers executing employees:

http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill...g99/saudi.html

Yet they still don't have 16% growth, even with a rather large population of expatriot workers...

Hey, here's another wonderful feel good story:

Four Sri Lankan workers beheaded in Saudi Arabia
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2007/fe...sril-f26.shtml

Looky, looky:

"The overwhelming majority are poorly paid and heavily indebted, due to the exorbitant fees charged by recruiting agencies. They often work as cleaners in hospitals and schools, as plumbers, carpenters, labourers and garbage collectors. Women are often engaged as domestic servants, assistants in beauty salons and as seamstresses. The report stated that migrant workers were often paid far lower salaries than promised and subjected to long working hours—up to 12 hours or more daily without overtime. Many instances were cited of salaries being unpaid for months and medical care being denied, although complaints are rarely made for fear of summary dismissal."

Hey they're working them up to over 12 hours a day! And these folks are a significant part of the population - over 350,000 of them, just from Sri Lanka, not even counting all the other expatriots.

And that's not counting these folks:
"Maids, Slaves, and Prisoners: To be employed in a Saudi home - forced servitude of women in Saudi Arabia":
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...55/ai_97347246

And yet, Saudi Arabia only had "According to preliminary data, real GDP growth hit 6.5% in 2005"

Now, they characterized that as a "boom," but Dubai more than tripled that - that was the real boom.

I believe that's enough to destroy your argument. But I'm sure there's plenty more information out their to contradict your fallacies if you want to continue arguing your nonsense.

No, I didn't say that. They don't have to be wrong all the time - they just need to be proven wrong on different occasions, and that calls into question their reliability. ESPECIALLY when they have a CONFLICT OF INTEREST in the matter. Get it? Of course you didn't...

__________________
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Schopenhauer

Which is why GDP by itself is a bad example of a country's success. Their GDP is so high because their rent and food costs are among the highest in the world. As are their hotel rates in order to pay the salaries necessary for people to survive there. They have a high GDP, low tax rates due to low needs for social services, but it doesn't equal a high standard of living. A significant majority of the population doesn't even own a car yet probably 90% live in homes that most would consider low middle class. Not to mention a lack of a/c.

__________________
All you need to know about the energy crisis:
ANWR Exploration Republicans: 91% Supported. Democrats: 86% Opposed.
Coal-to-liquid R's: 90% YES. D's: 78% NO.
Oil Shale Exploration R's: 90% YES. D's: 86% NO.
Outer Continental Shelf Exploration R's: 81% YES. D's: 83% NO.
Increased Refinery Capacity R's: 97% YES. D's: 96% NO

SUMMARY: 91% of House Republicans have historically voted to increase the production of America’s own oil and gas. 86% of House Democrats have historically voted against.

So I see NOW dubai is a state where before they were a country eh LieBringer? Well even then you are again incorrect:

DUBAI

The population of Dubai is 1.4 million inhabitants (2005 estimate), and the emirate covers 3,900 km², which is 5% of all of the UAE.
Shaykh Maktum bin Rashid al-Maktum has been the ruler of Dubai since 1990. He is also the Vice-President of UAE.
http://lexicorient.com/e.o/uae.htm

Hmmm it seems that once again your figures seem flawed and/or outdated and/or just plain full of crap....


Hmmm now lets look at your other "sources"

A Blog...color me unsurprised!
http://qatar.livejournal.com/224945.html


A "forum" Hosted by Daniel Pipes of all people! LOL
http://www.meforum.org/article/182


GEOCITIES????? Whats next crap written on bathroom walls?
http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill...g99/saudi.html

The World Socialist Website? Holy crap your desperate!
tp://www.wsws.org/articles/2007/feb2007/sril-f26.shtml

And you end with the National Review? Jesus Lie Bringer whats next are you going to toss out BS about how Gonzlaes is a reliable source when it comes to Justice Department information? How about Nixon as a source on the need for wire tapping? I know we can use Clinton as a source for marital fidelity as well!

Now lets talk money laundering. The best way to estimate the amount of cash being laundered is by looking at arrests....like this one:

Pasquarello says the DEA is involved in additional ongoing investigations in the U.S. and other countries around the world that have also found a link to Patel's "bank" in Dubai. An Interpol report on the hawala system points to Dubai as a major hub for hawala transactions, given the large population of expatriate workers from India and Pakistan, and Dubai's large gold market. Dubai was also traditionally lax on illicit financial transactions until 2001 when, under pressure from U.S. authorities, the country's central bank imposed reporting requirements

Note that the restrictions apply to banks not to the Hawala system which by its very nature makes regulation very tough....and VERY profitable. Liberalman


Italian authorities estimate that Patel handles around $4 million per day in payments to drug cartels in Turkey, South America, and Asia, and that he skims a commission of 7% to 11% off of the transactions. At a press conference held in Milan, authorities also said they had evidence some of the money was linked to illegal weapons sales. One of the Pakistanis arrested in Carpi is the treasurer of a cultural association that an Italian parliamentary investigation had previously linked to Al Qaeda, the Italian officials said.

http://www.businessweek.com/globalbi...lobal+business

Dubai - Two gangs responsible for laundering huge amounts of money through Dubai and other parts of the world have been busted, the head of Dubai Police has revealed. The police chief said the international gangs were responsible for laundering more than dhs74 billion during their operations. Lieutenant General Dahi Khalfan, speaking to an Arabic newspaper, said one of the gangs was responsible for laundering around dhs20 billion. Much of the dirty money originated in Colombia and came from drug dealing and assasinations.


Hmm seems this is bigger business then you want to let eh my freind!


And how big is slavery in dubai? Well reports show that the Governor of Dubai has been implicated in over 30,000 children....30 freaking thousand my boy!

A legal case has been filed in a US district court alleging that the governor of Dubai and his brother enslaved about 30,000 children over the past 30 years for use as camel jockeys... The case has been filed in Florida, where the defendants have property, on behalf of six parents. Lawyers are seeking class-action status on behalf of about 30,000 children.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...icle639427.ece


Hmmm it just gets worse and worse the more I dig....please note that my sources are the Times and Businessweek not just some dude from geocities or some unconfirmed blog but I am sure that you will attack both of them as the devils children or as perveyors of drugs or prostitutes or coutnerfit chicken nuggets.....

LOL. Once again, you slit your own wrist while trying to prove a point. I compared Dubai to a state, but I never said they were a state - now did I? I love it how you have to keep lying to keep this going...

Your own source presented above lists them as a separate territory with a separate population. Now, golly gee, Wally...wasn't that my point? And didn't you just refute the false figures you presented earlier?

And you'd prefer we go back to yours - with clear conflicts of interest? LOL.


Hmmm.... And yet law enforcement still says they can only ESTIMATE what's going on... But let's look at it in other countries and see if it correlates to GDP growth...

Hmmmm... Now here's an interesting report from the U.N. - focusing on the worse cases of money laundering - and it doesn't even mention Dubai:

"Most recently, Mexico has captured news headlines with stories of drug money laundering. According to the International Narcotics Control Board (INCB), which monitors compliance with anti-drug treaties, recent measures in Mexico have led to the arrest of over 11,000 persons, including high-ranking Government and military officials from September 1996 to August 1997 for drug trafficking and related criminal activities, including money laundering.

In countries of the former Soviet Union, the privatization of State-owned enterprises and deregulation of the banking system has facilitated the laundering of drug profits. In 1996, an expert on Russian affairs who testified before a US Congressional Committee said, "Privatized property is bought up by foreign and domestic criminal organizations to launder and hide illegal profits. Mobsters launder their ill-gotten gains by investing in gambling, luxury car dealerships in European cities like Budapest, and banks, marinas, and resorts in the Caribbean Basin. They also work with top-flight international attorneys in Frankfurt and Zurich to learn the money laundering techniques perfected by the Colombian drug lords and Sicilian mafia."

From: http://www.un.org/ga/20special/featur/launder.htm

Columbia is cited as one of the worst, with billions in drug profits being laundered yet what is their economic growth rate?:

ECLAC said the present economic expansion is spread across Latin America and the Caribbean, ranging between 3.5 per cent and 6.5 per cent for most countries of the region.

Whoops... No where near Dubai's...

You lose again, liberal weenie...


well, 30,000 children... We of course all know that children are much stronger workers than adults, so that must account for their rapid economic growth...NOT.

Let's look at child slavery in West Africa:

Child slavery: Africa's growing problem

By CNN's Avril Stephens

LONDON, England (CNN) -- Children continue to be sold into the domestic, agricultural and sex industries in Africa despite the slave trade being officially banned in the early 1880s.

The forced labour is a growing widespread problem in West and Central Africa often as a result of parents' ignorance or poverty, aid agenices have said.

The United Nation's children's agency UNICEF estimates 200,000 children are traded each year in the region.

From: http://edition.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/af...child.slavery/

Wow, at least 200,000 child slaves in that region. Yet the countries are impoverished with no where close to the growth rate of Dubai.

Whoops...you lose again.



It does get worse...for you.

That doesn't mean your sources are accurate. Nor does it do anything to prove your case that slavery and money laundering are the cause of Dubai's economic growth. All the evidence presented so far disputes that.

__________________
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Schopenhauer

ANd again you comapre apples and oranges and claim a correlation....in short your a liar my not so truthy freind....

I show you that the VERY few who have been caught in the laundering schemes in duabi have netted 74 billion in one case and 4 million dollars a day for the other....an operation that lasted YEARS.

Lie all you want liebringer but facts is facts and the lack of taxation hardly accounts for the growth you claim.

As to Mexico and Columbia you are correct they do launder money their to....difference is that there systems are more transparent then Dubais which has had no regulation until post 9/11. Of course you are going to see more information on Mexico my little spin bringer they actually have banking regulation! Regulation that is flawed and infected with graft and organized crime but still there....and under clinton at least they were moving forward in stopping some of that corruption.

from your article:

Most recently, Mexico has captured news headlines with stories of drug money laundering. According to the International Narcotics Control Board (INCB), which monitors compliance with anti-drug treaties, recent measures in Mexico have led to the arrest of over 11,000 persons, including high-ranking Government and military officials from September 1996 to August 1997 for drug trafficking and related criminal activities, including money laundering.


And this:

policy mistakes due to measurement errors in national account statistics; volatility in exchange and interest rates due to unanticipated cross border transfers of funds; the threat of monetary instability due to unsound asset structures; effects on tax collection and public expenditure allocation due to misreporting of income; misallocation of resources due to distortions in asset and commodity prices; and contamination effects on legal transactions due to the perceived possibility of being associated with crime.


Note how the money laundering on a large scale makes reported economic numbers VERY unreliable. Funny how that works isn't lie bringer. I mean you look a the numbers and yell, "Whoohoo!" and yet the source YOU give states that you cannot trust economic numbers when this type of buisiness is in practice...I would say that, taht pretty much kills your argument son! THanks for proving yourself wrong!



So as you can see compliance and at least some regulation at least as far back as the Clinton Admin while in Dubai they only got on the ball in 2002 and you want to claim that Mexico's stats are somehow your smoking gun? Nope son your just comparing a gvt that has been forced to at least pretend to comply against one that has only recently begun to admit they even have a problem! Apples and oranges and as stated above the GDP you quote is meaningless due in large part to the lack of regulation and oversite in Dubai.

In short once again you are being intellectually dishonest....or lying.


Next you come back with a quote about columbia from....The Jamaica Observer? Come on! Blogs, forums and now this?


Next you jump to Africa and try to make the claim that slavery there somehow proves it is not profitable in Dubai....problem is that once again you are comparing to dispartly different regions and economies. Apples and Oranges....again nice try but until you can account for the inflation of ecnomic numbers due to money laundering AND slave labor your argument is moot.

You're still wrong, liberalweenie. Let me point out again, you can't do basic addition.

And here's another link where you try to convince everyone that libertarian Robert Anton Wilson is falsely criticizing the basic tenets of libertarianism. Again, not an intelligent move.

So I ask again, you can't add and you use sources that refute your own argument. What exactly do you think gives you any credibility???


Which doesn't refute anything I said earlier...

What the facts show is that the lack of taxation is basically the only thing that could account for the growth. You just don't want that to be true...

And yet the article says government officials were involved. Who oversees regulation liberalweenie? If you guessed government officials...then you're correct. If they're compromised, then the whole regulatory system is compromised...and all the figures they produce. Nice try, but you lose again...

You are such a lying fraud, liberalweenie. You left out some of the later information in the article which refutes everything you just typed. The source concluded that the result effect on the economies in question was NEGATIVE, not positive:

"It is known, for instance, that in the early 1990s an influx of tainted money into several banks in the Baltic states resulted in their collapse due to the high number of withdrawals triggered by customers' knowledge of dirty deals and lack of consumer confidence.

"Some countries in the Caribbean are beginning to realize that taking this money can be devastating to their economies", says Brown of Interpol."

What I can see is that you like to leave out information that disagrees with your fallacious conclusions.

I'd keep my mouth shut if I were you, since you've been caught lying several times in this thread already...


Then refute the information if you claim it's not reliable. Of course, as we've seen throughout this thread, you're only looking to twist the truth to try and match your own beliefs.

If slavery equals massive economic profit, then it should show the same results anywhere. We're not comparing the products and services, little fraud, we're just comparing the growth rates... And slavery in and of itself does not equal high growth rates for an economy.

__________________
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Schopenhauer

Lets see you toss out crap and then back it up with more crap.

Your own (dated) source shows that money laundering makes economic indicators useless. Given that there has been little to nothing done to stop the practice your argument is moot before it leaves the gate.

In short you lied, got caught and then tried to counter with blog entries, forum entries and the far far far far far rightwing sources.

I countered those with Human rights watch an international organization praised by people from both sides of the aisle and a slew of other respected sources....you came back with your lone credible source and it was from the 1990's, did not look at the middle east really and in the end showed that you were PERSONAL INSULT REMOVED.

Now your latest lies are based on:

Oh no not that anything but your lie filled personal rants! Nope thats all you got left I take it....well my little liar it seems that once again PERSONAL INSULT REMOVED.

Finally the Anton issue...seeing as you all say that liberterianism is a result of natural law the fact that one of your muckety mucks says that that argument is bogus is worth repeating if only to show how much people like YOU lie. Here is ANTON'S quote:

Natural Law metaphysics can accurately be described as a verbal construct that, like a hypnotist's commands, creates a trance state in which experience is edited out and the verbally-induced hypnotic revery becomes more "real" than sensory-sensual stimuli. Natural Law appears to be a map that does not correspond to any real territory, but like other Idols it becomes almost "real" when the worshipper stares at it long enough with passionate adoration.

Looks like I was quite correct to quote him as he shreds the excuse that you and yours so love to give....ooops!

One must note that when PERSONAL INSULT REMOVED. like yourself resort to jumping all the way back to a thread wrtten in March they have already lost the argument at hand are now trying to change the subject....

Face it your thread proved only that you did not do your research, have no clue about the effects of money laundering and other REAL WORLD banking/economic issues and the this last bit of drivel shows that you do not even know the truth about the BS you spew even when hit over the head with it by one of your own.

ROTFL. Your insanity is quite funny. Again, that source concludes in stating it's theory - that the consequences are negative, and you falsely portrayed them as positive. Please stop lying. Is it so hard for you to try and be honest? You are truly pathological.

The root point is that you were using his words to try and refute libertarianism. As I said, it doesn't matter to me what you base the system on, as long as it's libertarian. Since he agrees with libertarianism, it's pointless for you to fraudulently try and portray that establishing it through natural law is essential.

Again, you're exposed as a lying fraud.

__________________
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Schopenhauer

blah blah blah my lying freind...you still are basing your nonsense on meaningless numbers due to the money laundering and other illicit trade that makes up a HUGE part of the economy in dubai...until that is taken care of yuou have no basis for your argument and all in all no credibility. YOu also fail to prove that taxes or lack there of have squat to do with anything....in short blah blah blah blah!

Peddle your snake oil elsewhere son...you killed your own argument with your own "evidence"!

As to your BS argument about liberterianism the post you referenced was based on the assertion by ilk such as yourself that liberterian theory was based on natural law and therefore irefutable...I found one from your own party that states that natural law is crap and you just hate that eh my lying little liberterian/neocon!