Thread: Islam, Arabs, invented Palestinians

Gingrich's fresh hope
http://www.carolineglick.com/e/2011/...fresh-hope.php

I have met Caroline Glick. It was brief but she has responded to my e-mails and I subscribe to her site. A brilliant and fiesty journalist and commentator.

Originally Posted by Onward James

Gingrich's fresh hope
http://www.carolineglick.com/e/2011/...fresh-hope.php

I have met Caroline Glick. It was brief but she has responded to my e-mails and I subscribe to her site. A brilliant and fiesty journalist and commentator.

Glick is playing headgames. Read the Palestine papers at Avalon Project: Yale.

Originally Posted by Onward James

What was the tilte again? Did you read all of it. How about this question: are you a convert or just an apologist & appeaser?

"Palestinians" outraged by Gingrich remarks
]

It take an idiot to go along + believe an idiot like Newt.

O-James - Open your mind , read and learn from those who are far more educated + knowledgeable than a fat head like Gingrich :




or this :

Here is a fascinating review review by well known Israeli writer Tom Segev of a book titled, "When and How Was the Jewish People Invented?" (published by Resling in Hebrew). It is authored by Israeli historian Shlomo Zand. Prof. Zand teaches at Tel Aviv University. Segev writes "..in one of the most fascinating and challenging books published here in a long time. There never was a Jewish people, only a Jewish religion, and the exile also never happened - hence there was no return. Zand rejects most of the stories of national-identity formation in the Bible, including the exodus from Egypt and, most satisfactorily, the horrors of the conquest under Joshua. It's all fiction and myth that served as an excuse for the establishment of the State of Israel, he asserts."

I should add that this information and arguments have been around for a long time but it is nice to see it published in one of Israel's leading daily newspapers and presented in a book written by an Israeli historian.

Ed Corrigan


An Invention Called 'The Jewish People'By Tom Segev
Ha'aretz.com
2-29-8


Israel's Declaration of Independence states that the Jewish people arose in the Land of Israel and was exiled from its homeland. Every Israeli schoolchild is taught that this happened during the period of Roman rule, in 70 CE. The nation remained loyal to its land, to which it began to return after two millennia of exile. Wrong, says the historian Shlomo Zand, in one of the most fascinating and challenging books published here in a long time. There never was a Jewish people, only a Jewish religion, and the exile also never happened - hence there was no return. Zand rejects most of the stories of national-identity formation in the Bible, including the exodus from Egypt and, most satisfactorily, the horrors of the conquest under Joshua. It's all fiction and myth that served as an excuse for the establishment of the State of Israel, he asserts.

According to Zand, the Romans did not generally exile whole nations, and most of the Jews were permitted to remain in the country. The number of those exiled was at most tens of thousands. When the country was conquered by the Arabs, many of the Jews converted to Islam and were assimilated among the conquerors. It follows that the progenitors of the Palestinian Arabs were Jews. Zand did not invent this thesis; 30 years before the Declaration of Independence, it was espoused by David Ben-Gurion, Yitzhak Ben-Zvi and others.

If the majority of the Jews were not exiled, how is it that so many of them reached almost every country on earth?

Zand says they emigrated of their own volition or, if they were among those exiled to Babylon, remained there because they chose to. Contrary to conventional belief, the Jewish religion tried to induce members of other faiths to become Jews, which explains how there came to be millions of Jews in the world. As the Book of Esther, for example, notes, "And many of the people of the land became Jews; for the fear of the Jews fell upon them."

Zand quotes from many existing studies, some of which were written in Israel but shunted out of the central discourse. He also describes at length the Jewish kingdom of Himyar in the southern Arabian Peninsula and the Jewish Berbers in North Africa. The community of Jews in Spain sprang from Arabs who became Jews and arrived with the forces that captured Spain from the Christians, and from European-born individuals who had also become Jews.

The first Jews of Ashkenaz (Germany) did not come from the Land of Israel and did not reach Eastern Europe from Germany, but became Jews in the Khazar Kingdom in the Caucasus. Zand explains the origins of Yiddish culture: it was not a Jewish import from Germany, but the result of the connection between the offspring of the Kuzari and Germans who traveled to the East, some of them as merchants.

We find, then, that the members of a variety of peoples and races, blond and black, brown and yellow, became Jews in large numbers. According to Zand, the Zionist need to devise for them a shared ethnicity and historical continuity produced a long series of inventions and fictions, along with an invocation of racist theses. Some were concocted in the minds of those who conceived the Zionist movement, while others were offered as the findings of genetic studies conducted in Israel.

Prof. Zand teaches at Tel Aviv University. His book, "When and How Was the Jewish People Invented?" (published by Resling in Hebrew), is intended to promote the idea that Israel should be a "state of all its citizens" - Jews, Arabs and others - in contrast to its declared identity as a "Jewish and democratic" state. Personal stories, a prolonged theoretical discussion and abundant sarcastic quips do not help the book, but its historical chapters are well- written and cite numerous facts and insights that many Israelis will be astonished to read for the first time.

READ and Learn :


http://www.rense.com/general81/iuvnt.htm



....

Of course, Marlowe, we have all been invented. But you seem to be either anti-Israel-and-Jews, pro-Palestinians, Muslims and so forth. I have studied the Middle East, researched for a historical fiction novel, for over a decade and I have met notable authorities... hence, I have found that Islamic ideology is deceitful. The Qur'an is a doctrine of the sword, of course it depends on the intrepreter.

Then there are the academics and others who are anti-Jews, often because they are quite jealous that the Jewish people have won more awards and scholarly prizes per capita than just about every other religion and seculars...

And I suppose you are not a Churchill fan. Are you of the left, the labour party perhaps?

Churchill about Islam 1899

Sir Winston Churchill; (Source: The River War, first edition, Vol. II, pages 248-50 London )

"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries, improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.

A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement, the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Muslims may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world.

Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome."

"There is no greater mistake than to suppose that platitudes, smooth words, and timid policies offer a path to safety."

"An appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile hoping it will eat him last."

http://onwardjames.blogspot.com/2010...ver-never.html

Originally Posted by Onward James

Of course, Marlowe, we have all been invented. But you seem to be either anti-Israel-and-Jews, pro-Palestinians, Muslims and so forth. I have studied the Middle East, researched for a historical fiction novel, for over a decade and I have met notable authorities... hence, I have found that Islamic ideology is deceitful. The Qur'an is a doctrine of the sword, of course it depends on the intrepreter.

Then there are the academics and others who are anti-Jews, often because they are quite jealous that the Jewish people have won more awards and scholarly prizes per capita than just about every other religion and seculars...

And I suppose you are not a Churchill fan. Are you of the left, the labour party perhaps?

Churchill about Islam 1899

Sir Winston Churchill; (Source: The River War, first edition, Vol. II, pages 248-50 London )

"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries, improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.

A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement, the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Muslims may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world.

Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome."

"There is no greater mistake than to suppose that platitudes, smooth words, and timid policies offer a path to safety."

"An appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile hoping it will eat him last."

http://onwardjames.blogspot.com/2010...ver-never.html

What sort of sources did you use to study Islam or the Middle East. What notable authorities have you met?

Pharaonic inscriptions found in Arabia

Originally Posted by Onward James

And I suppose you are not a Churchill fan. Are you of the left, the labour party perhaps?

[I]Churchill about Islam 1899

Sir Winston Churchill; (Source: The River War, first edition, Vol. II, pages 248-50 London )

]

Being from working class (Blue Collar ) background - yes - I share some views of what use to be the Labour Party before Blair *ucked it up. Nowadays most of us are just lackeys/toadies. .

Re Churchill - hmmm - its a case of -Horses for Courses - a son/soldier of the British Empire without whom we'd probably not have defeated the Nazis.

Naturally - Churchill , like a soldier/fighter never had anything good to say abt his adversaries + enemies.,

He was certainly no expert on Islam. " The River War" late 19th Century - was abt -his experiences as a British Army officer, during the Mahdist War in Sudan an attempt for British Empire expansion, - which failed. Churchill was of another age - an age + world of Empire building.

------

btw - I presume you're also familiar of what Churchill later had to say abt the Jews in 1920 :




" The National Jews of Russia : ( Bolshevism)

"And it may well be that this same astounding race(Jews) may at the present time be in the actual process of producing another system of morals and philosophy, as malevolent as Christianity was benevolent, which, if not arrested would shatter irretrievably all that Christianity has rendered possible. It would almost seem as if the gospel of Christ and the gospel of Antichrist were destined to originate among the same people; and that this mystic and mysterious race had been chosen for the supreme manifestations, both of the divine and the diabolical.

"International Jews

"In violent opposition to all this sphere of Jewish efforts rise the schemes of the International Jews.

The adherents of this sinister confederacy are mostly men reared up among the unhappy populations of countries where Jews are persecuted on account of their race.

Most, if not all, of them have forsaken the faith of their forefathers, and divorced from their minds all spiritual hopes of the next world.


cheers.
...

Originally Posted by Marlowe

It take an idiot to go along + believe an idiot like Newt.

O-James - Open your mind , read and learn from those who are far more educated + knowledgeable than a fat head like Gingrich :




or this :

Here is a fascinating review review by well known Israeli writer Tom Segev of a book titled, "When and How Was the Jewish People Invented?" (published by Resling in Hebrew). It is authored by Israeli historian Shlomo Zand. Prof. Zand teaches at Tel Aviv University. Segev writes "..in one of the most fascinating and challenging books published here in a long time. There never was a Jewish people, only a Jewish religion, and the exile also never happened - hence there was no return. Zand rejects most of the stories of national-identity formation in the Bible, including the exodus from Egypt and, most satisfactorily, the horrors of the conquest under Joshua. It's all fiction and myth that served as an excuse for the establishment of the State of Israel, he asserts."

I should add that this information and arguments have been around for a long time but it is nice to see it published in one of Israel's leading daily newspapers and presented in a book written by an Israeli historian.

Ed Corrigan


An Invention Called 'The Jewish People'By Tom Segev
Ha'aretz.com
2-29-8


Israel's Declaration of Independence states that the Jewish people arose in the Land of Israel and was exiled from its homeland. Every Israeli schoolchild is taught that this happened during the period of Roman rule, in 70 CE. The nation remained loyal to its land, to which it began to return after two millennia of exile. Wrong, says the historian Shlomo Zand, in one of the most fascinating and challenging books published here in a long time. There never was a Jewish people, only a Jewish religion, and the exile also never happened - hence there was no return. Zand rejects most of the stories of national-identity formation in the Bible, including the exodus from Egypt and, most satisfactorily, the horrors of the conquest under Joshua. It's all fiction and myth that served as an excuse for the establishment of the State of Israel, he asserts.

According to Zand, the Romans did not generally exile whole nations, and most of the Jews were permitted to remain in the country. The number of those exiled was at most tens of thousands. When the country was conquered by the Arabs, many of the Jews converted to Islam and were assimilated among the conquerors. It follows that the progenitors of the Palestinian Arabs were Jews. Zand did not invent this thesis; 30 years before the Declaration of Independence, it was espoused by David Ben-Gurion, Yitzhak Ben-Zvi and others.

If the majority of the Jews were not exiled, how is it that so many of them reached almost every country on earth?

Zand says they emigrated of their own volition or, if they were among those exiled to Babylon, remained there because they chose to. Contrary to conventional belief, the Jewish religion tried to induce members of other faiths to become Jews, which explains how there came to be millions of Jews in the world. As the Book of Esther, for example, notes, "And many of the people of the land became Jews; for the fear of the Jews fell upon them."

Zand quotes from many existing studies, some of which were written in Israel but shunted out of the central discourse. He also describes at length the Jewish kingdom of Himyar in the southern Arabian Peninsula and the Jewish Berbers in North Africa. The community of Jews in Spain sprang from Arabs who became Jews and arrived with the forces that captured Spain from the Christians, and from European-born individuals who had also become Jews.

The first Jews of Ashkenaz (Germany) did not come from the Land of Israel and did not reach Eastern Europe from Germany, but became Jews in the Khazar Kingdom in the Caucasus. Zand explains the origins of Yiddish culture: it was not a Jewish import from Germany, but the result of the connection between the offspring of the Kuzari and Germans who traveled to the East, some of them as merchants.

We find, then, that the members of a variety of peoples and races, blond and black, brown and yellow, became Jews in large numbers. According to Zand, the Zionist need to devise for them a shared ethnicity and historical continuity produced a long series of inventions and fictions, along with an invocation of racist theses. Some were concocted in the minds of those who conceived the Zionist movement, while others were offered as the findings of genetic studies conducted in Israel.

Prof. Zand teaches at Tel Aviv University. His book, "When and How Was the Jewish People Invented?" (published by Resling in Hebrew), is intended to promote the idea that Israel should be a "state of all its citizens" - Jews, Arabs and others - in contrast to its declared identity as a "Jewish and democratic" state. Personal stories, a prolonged theoretical discussion and abundant sarcastic quips do not help the book, but its historical chapters are well- written and cite numerous facts and insights that many Israelis will be astonished to read for the first time.

READ and Learn :


http://www.rense.com/general81/iuvnt.htm



....

what is all this crap man ? jews were not created in fact god sent them a prophet and they are mentioned in the Quran numerous times .... cut the BS you and margrot .

Originally Posted by Onward James

Of course, Marlowe, we have all been invented. But you seem to be either anti-Israel-and-Jews, pro-Palestinians, Muslims and so forth. I have studied the Middle East, researched for a historical fiction novel, for over a decade and I have met notable authorities... hence, I have found that Islamic ideology is deceitful. The Qur'an is a doctrine of the sword, of course it depends on the intrepreter.

Then there are the academics and others who are anti-Jews, often because they are quite jealous that the Jewish people have won more awards and scholarly prizes per capita than just about every other religion and seculars...

And I suppose you are not a Churchill fan. Are you of the left, the labour party perhaps?

Churchill about Islam 1899

Sir Winston Churchill; (Source: The River War, first edition, Vol. II, pages 248-50 London )

"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries, improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.

A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement, the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Muslims may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world.

Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome."

"There is no greater mistake than to suppose that platitudes, smooth words, and timid policies offer a path to safety."

"An appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile hoping it will eat him last."

http://onwardjames.blogspot.com/2010...ver-never.html

was that the Churchill who taught Saddam all about gassing Kurds!

Newt's unpopular truth: Palestine wasn’t even a country 100 years ago

http://www.torontosun.com/2011/12/16...-100-years-ago

It was the British, who had taken the region from the Turks during the First World War, who in 1920 formed Palestine, just as they artificially created nations all over their empire.

The local Arabs were stunned, and resistant.

The Muslims explained that this “Palestine” meant nothing, and that they were southern Syrians, loyal to Damascus.

Originally Posted by Onward James

Newt's unpopular truth: Palestine wasn’t even a country 100 years ago

http://www.torontosun.com/2011/12/16...-100-years-ago

It was the British, who had taken the region from the Turks during the First World War, who in 1920 formed Palestine, just as they artificially created nations all over their empire.

The local Arabs were stunned, and resistant.

The Muslims explained that this “Palestine” meant nothing, and that they were southern Syrians, loyal to Damascus.

Newt is a moron.. he studied Modern European history and knows nothing at all about Palestine.

Neither was Israel a country 100 years ago.

The Arabs fought with the British to drive out the Tuks.. No European Jews fought.

The British had an administrative commission.. Palestine was neither a British Colony nor a British Territory.

Words have meanings.. Read the documents at Yale Law school : Avalon Project.

What Palestine did have was its own currency, stamps and newspapers until 1949.