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Old 12-22-2007, 09:54 PM
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Default territory captured in self defense vs aggression

The Acquisition of Territory Captured in a War of Self-Defense is Different from a War of Aggression
There is a further cardinal point regarding the question of whether the acquisition of captured territory from 1967 by Israel can be regarded as illegal. The great authority in international law, Elihu Lauterpacht, has drawn the distinction between unlawful territorial change by an aggressor and lawful territorial change in response to an aggressor. In drafting its preamble, the architects of Resolution 242 were referring to known international legal principles that precluded territorial modifications as a result of aggression. The preamble talks about "acquisition of territory by war."
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Is the acquisition of captured territory by Israel in 1967 illegal? The great authority in internationa law, Elihu Lauterpacht, has drawn the distinction between unlawful territorial change by an aggressor and lawful territorial change in response to an aggressor.
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The case of a war of self-defense in response to aggression is a very different matter. This distinction was further made by Stephen Schwebel, who would later become the legal advisor of the U.S. Department of State and then serve as President of the International Court of Justice at The Hague. The preamble of Resolution 242 was a compromise that took into account the other drafts that were before the Security Council, even though it did not really apply to Israel's case. And by keeping it in the preamble and not in the operative parts of the resolution, the architects of Resolution 242 avoided creating any legal obligations for Israel that could be construed as precluding the resolution's call for new "secure and recognized boundaries" beyond the earlier 1967 lines.

http://www.defensibleborders.org/rosenne.htm
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Old 12-23-2007, 03:34 AM
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Default Begion says Israel started it.

As Israel was the aggressor in every war in the Levant apart from the Yom Kippur war Israel has a lot of territory to give up. The is Western Galilee, Majdal, and the area associated with the Gaza strip, The area along the West Bank, the Latrun salient, Golan Heights, Shaba farms etc etc.

Address by Prime Minister Begin at the National Defense College- 8 August 1982

Quote:
In June 1967 we again had a choice. The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.
Israeli MFA
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Old 12-23-2007, 07:04 AM
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Default context is everything

Quote:
In June 1967 we again had a choice. The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.

This was a war of self-defence in the noblest sense of the term. The government of national unity then established decided unanimously: We will take the initiative and attack the enemy, drive him back, and thus assure the security of Israel and the future of the nation.

We did not do this for lack of an alternative. We could have gone on waiting. We could have sent the army home. Who knows if there would have been an attack against us? There is no proof of it. There are several arguments to the contrary. While it is indeed true that the closing of the Straits of Tiran was an act of aggression, a causus belli, there is always room for a great deal of consideration as to whether it is necessary to make a causus into a bellum.
More context:

While nasser continued to make speeches threatening war, arab terrorist attacks grew more frequent. In 1965, 35 raids were conducted against Israel. In 1966, the number increased to 41. In just the first four months of 1967, 37 attacks were launched.5

Meanwhile, syria's attacks on Israeli kibbutzim from the Golan Heights provoked a retaliatory strike on April 7, 1967, during which Israeli planes shot down six syrian MiGs. Shortly thereafter, the soviet union--which had been providing military and economic aid to both syria and egypt--gave damascus information alleging a massive Israeli military buildup in preparation for an attack. Despite Israeli denials, syria decided to invoke its defense treaty with egypt.

On May 15, Israel's Independence Day, egyptian troops began moving into the Sinai and massing near the Israeli border. By May 18, syrian troops were prepared for battle along the Golan Heights.

nasser ordered the un emergency force, stationed in the Sinai since 1956, to withdraw on May 16. Without bringing the matter to the attention of the general assembly, as his predecessor had promised, secretary-general u thant complied with the demand. After the withdrawal of the unef, the voice of the arabs proclaimed (May 18, 1967):
[list]As of today, there no longer exists an international emergency force to protect Israel. We shall exercise patience no more. We shall not complain any more to the un about Israel. The sole method we shall apply against Israel is total war, which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence.6

An enthusiastic echo was heard May 20 from syrian defense minister hafez assad:
  • Our forces are now entirely ready not only to repulse the aggression, but to initiate the act of "liquidation" itself, and to explode the Zionist presence in Israel. The syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united....I, as a military man, believe that the time has come to enter into a battle of annihilation.7

The Blockade


On May 22, egypt closed the Straits of Tiran to all Israeli shipping and all ships bound for Eilat. This blockade cut off Israel's only supply route with Asia and stopped the flow of oil from its main supplier, Iran.

JVL

You may object to the bias of the source all you like, but it is absolutely correct in its assertions
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Old 12-23-2007, 07:43 AM
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Default 6 Day War started a lot earlier.

The straits of Tiran was closed to Israeli shipping????

Closed to Israeli ships carrying materials of War. Any Israeli shipping that was willing to be stopped and searched for materials was to be let through. The Israeli Government decided to stop all Israeli shipping under its own volition.

Oil in a tank is a material of War. In international law that is permissible. Egypt was willing to go to International tribunals for a ruling, Israel was not. JVL as per usual is using equivocations (lies) to present a case for Israel.

Part one and two six day war deceptions

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YorwoqFGCn4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgZQpHsfWNw

9 Minutes and 2 secs Israel pre-emptive strike.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wy5L3GPy7JQ&NR=1

Nov 13, 1966 Samu' raid: Israeli troops retaliate for the November 10 killing of 3 Israeli soldiers by a mine planted on a patrol road. The attack unexpectedly runs into a column of Jordan Legion soldiers, kills 15 Jordanian soldiers and 3 civilians, & dynamite 125 houses in as Samu according to UN or about 40 according to Israelis, near Hebron; in response to the incursion Israel is censured by SCR228 (25 Nov 66), but there is no military response from Amman. This leads to recriminations in the Israeli government, which had intended a smaller scale raid, and Palestinian anger and clashes with Jordanian security forces throughout West Bank, especially in Nablus where the army had to intervene. The PLO gains support.
See:-
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/frus/jo.../xix/28052.htm
communication no. 3.

Dec 14, 1966 Egyptian Marshal Hakim Amer cables Nasser from Pakistan, recommending closing the straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping and dismissing the UNEF force from Gaza.

Dec 19, 1966 Israel signs the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights (CESCR) and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) ratified Oct 3, 1991

1967 Jan -March 1967 Over 270 border "incidents" cause rising concern in Israel.

March 3 1967 - Landmine injures tractor driver in Kibbutz Shamir.

March 12 1967, explosion on train tracks near Kibbutz Lahav.

March 26 1967, 2 Palestinians killed trying to demolish a water pump near Arad.

April 7, 1967 Israelis respond to intensive Syrian shelling of DMZ and Israeli villages and kibbutzim with IAF raid. An air battle involving about 130 aircraft developed. Israelis down 6 MiG 21 fighters, 2 over the Golan and 4 over Damascus.

Two Americans at the AlD mission in Yemen had been jailed in April on charges of attempting to destroy the city of Taiz; they were released on May 17. For information concerning this episode, see the Yemen compilation in Foreign Relations, 1964-1968, volume XXI; see also ibid., vol. XVIII, Document 417.

May - Arab unity reaches a new height. Nasser puts Egyptian forces on full alert and orders U.N. observers to leave the Sinai. He closes the Gulf of Aqaba to Israeli shipping and declares that Israel must be destroyed With reference to Gulf of Aqaba, Nasser stated that for eight years after 1948 the Straits had been closed to Israeli shipping and was open only by the illegal act of Israel, France and England, and he proposed merely to return to the status of 1956 which had been at least tolerated by all the nations for eight years. He explained that even we had deplored and opposed the act of the Israelis, British and French which changed the status quo in 1956. He stated that the Straits of Tiran were navigable only in a width of three miles which was clearly territorial waters and that he intended to maintain this position. He was asked specifically what commerce he would allow through the Straits under his concept and he replied by saying that the exclusions would be 1) Israeli ships, 2) oil or any refined products, and 3) arms for Israel. Here he stated that all countries claimed territorial waters to a greater distance offshore than he was asserting and further that he was at war with Israel and had been since 1948 with nothing existing between them except an armistice, and that under these circumstances he was entitled to assert jurisdiction. When asked if Nasser would consider referring this matter of the Straits to either the United Nations or the World Court, in view of the fact that four countries had borders on the Gulf. He replied that he would not submit the question to the UN because the Israelis normally treated resolutions of the UN not favourable to them as "pieces of paper." He said that he did not have sufficient knowledge of the World Court to answer specifically about referring the matter to the World Court for decision but would consult his legal advisers. This was qualified by saying that he did not want to undertake any course of action that would take "years" to decide.

May 11, 1967 Israeli PM Eshkol states, "In view of the 14 incidents in the past month alone it is possible that we will have to adopt measures no less drastic than those of April 7." UPI circulated a rumour (May 12) that Israel was trying to topple the Syrian regime. The incidents included shelling, terror attacks and attempted infiltration of a Syrian agent to blow up locations in Jerusalem.

May 12, 1967 Remarks by Yitzhak Rabin interpreted as provocative against Syria. Rabin is rebuked by Eshkol.

May 13, 1967 Soviets inform Anwar Sadat in Moscow that Israel is massing 10-12 brigades in preparation for an attack on Syria, supposedly to take place May 17. The information is denied by Israeli Government. But:-

3. El Feki followed all of this most carefully and with genuine interest. He said that he was particularly struck by the fact that whereas the Israelis denied any build up on the Syrian border, no mention was made of Jordanian border. He also read from one of his intelligence reports which highlighted fact that yesterday's Jerusalem parade did not include any significant heavy equipment, thus revealing that such equipment had been kept with units.

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/frus/jo.../xix/28052.htm

May 14, 1967 First reports of Egyptian troop movements into Sinai.

May 16, 1967 Radio Cairo broadcast stated: "The existence of Israel has continued too long. We welcome the Israeli aggression. We welcome the battle we have long awaited. The peak hour has come. The battle has come in which we shall destroy Israel."

May 18, 1967 Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser orders the United Nations Emergency Force to leave Sinai.

May 20 1967, Egypt began withdrawing its troops from Yemen, and Israel re-evaluated the situation. The IDF responded with a large-scale mobilization of its reserve forces, which paralysed Israel's economy.

May 21, 1967 Ben-Gurion summons Israeli Chief of Staff Rabin and accuses him of precipitating the crisis and dragging Israel into a dangerous war. On the following day, Rabin, under tremendous pressure, is incapacitated temporarily by nicotine poisoning, massive fatigue or a nervous breakdown.
May 23, 1967 Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser closes the straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping. Egypt moves six divisions, about 130,000 soldiers, into Sinai. Negotiations with US to reopen the Straits of Tiran fail.

23 May 1967 The Israeli cabinet met and decided to launch a pre-emptive strike if the Straits of Tiran were not re-opened to Israeli shipping by 25 May. Following an approach from US Undersecretary of State Eugene Rostow to allow time for the negotiation of a non-violent solution Israel agreed to a delay of ten days to two weeks.

May 26, 1967 Speech by Gamal Nasser to Arab Trade Unionists Nasser claimed that Egypt was only looking for the right movement and the proper excuse to fight for the Palestinian cause.

Two Egyptian Air Force MiG 21s over flew the Israeli nuclear reactor in Dimona. Israel was unable to intercept them, and the over-flight caused quite a bit of concern. Needless to say, this rather explicit speech on the same day produced alarm in Israel.

http://www.mideastweb.org/nasser26may67.htm

May 26, 1967 President Johnson reluctantly agrees to see Abba Eban. Tells him he is powerless to act to open straits of Tiran and requires more time (about two weeks) to assemble UN support for a regatta to open the straits. Warns Israel against unilateral action. Subsequent UN debate proves fruitless.

May 27, 1967 Nasser cancels a planned Egyptian attack on Israel (Operation fajr - Dawn), planned for following day, after it became obvious that the Israelis knew about the plan.

May 28, 1967 Israeli Levi Eshkol broadcasts a hesitant, stammering speech, further exacerbating pressure on him to make way for other leaders. Later it is claimed that the stammering was due to problems in reading the manuscript.

28 May Secretary McNamara said the Israelis think they can win in 3-4 days; but he thinks it would be longer--7 to 10 days.

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/frus/jo.../xix/28057.htm

May 29, 1967 Speech by Gamal Nasser to Egyptian National Assembly Members - Nasser explicitly threatened to destroy Israel: "...God will surely help and urge us to restore the situation to what it was in 1948....But now that the time has come - and I have already said in the past that we will decide the time and place and not allow them to decide - we must be ready for triumph and not for a recurrence of the 1948 comedies. "

http://www.mideastweb.org/nasser26may67.htm

May 30, 1967 Jordan signs a defence pact with Egypt, allows Egyptian command of Jordan Legion.

May Israel mobilizes 13 brigades on Syrian border. Nasser informs Robert Anderson who carried out diplomatic missions on behalf of President Lyndon B. Johnson saying he [Nasser] felt he had no choice but to mobilize and send troops to Sinai.

May 31, 1967 President Abdur Rahman Aref of Iraq stated "The existence of Israel is an error which must be rectified. This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear - to wipe Israel off the map.

Jun 2, 1967 Moshe Dayan joins Israeli cabinet as Minister of Defence (the US assessment is that the appointment was hardly favourable to restraint). Unity government formed. Reservists released for furlough before outbreak of the war.

June 2nd 1967: "Robert C. Toth, Los Angeles Times correspondent in Israel, was able to circumvent military censorship on the scope of the Israel mobilization before hostilities. To keep the extent of the call-up secret, Israel said it had undertaken 'partial mobilization'. Censors would pass no other phrase. Deep in a story on war preparations filed three days before the fighting began, Toth inserted the phrase, 'Israel's partial mobilization was Ivory-pure.' The story cleared. On the foreign desk in Los Angeles, editors quickly realized Toth was referring to the Ivory soap slogan--99 and 44/100ths per cent pure--and rewrote Toth's lead paragraph to say that Israel was 'fully mobilized'."

Six Days in June by Robert J. Donovan and the staff of the Los Angeles Times,

UN Docs

Saturday 3rd June 1967: President Johnson informed by Abe Feinberg at a fund raising dinner that Israel had decided to go to “War”.

Lyndon: An Oral Biography (Published in New York by G P Putman 1980) ISBN-13: 978-0345296528 page 480

War is inevitable.
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Old 12-23-2007, 02:46 PM
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Default 6 Day War Video

Old News video. Excellent

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hIll...ature=related#

Along with some real history:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9MkcsBbBGA
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Old 12-23-2007, 03:11 PM
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Default sheer revisionism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashleykennedy";p=&quot View Post
The straits of Tiran was closed to Israeli shipping????

Closed to Israeli ships carrying materials of War. Any Israeli shipping that was willing to be stopped and searched for materials was to be let through. The Israeli Government decided to stop all Israeli shipping under its own volition.

Oil in a tank is a material of War. In international law that is permissible. Egypt was willing to go to International tribunals for a ruling, Israel was not. JVL as per usual is using equivocations (lies) to present a case for Israel.
This is just plain revisionist bull. Even the Arab sites admit it.


Quote:

Inter-Arab rivalries during these ten years pitted Egypt against Syria, and Egyptian military interference with domestic troubles in Yemen (including the use of poison gas against civilians) had Egypt at odds with Saudi Arabia. Soon, in the context of these tensions, a number of Arab states accused Egypt of “hiding behind the skirts of the UN” instead of preparing for ‘round 3’ against Israel. As a result, Nasser began a major military build-up, with the assistance of the USSR, including the illegal construction of ground-to-ground missiles in the Sinai.

In April, 1967, the Soviets in the UN accused Israel of mounting a massive military build-up on the Syrian border. Israel denied the accusation and invited the USSR to send observers to verify the truth. The USSR refused. But the UN, under Secretary General U-Thant of Burma, sent a commission to investigate. It quickly ascertained that the Soviets were lying. There was no Israeli military massing at Syria’s gates. The reason for the Soviet deception is a matter of speculation. Most historians assume that the USSR wanted to spark a war that they were sure the Arabs would win, thanks to the armaments that the USSR had provided them. Such an outcome would cement Soviet relationships with the Arab world and push the US onto the sidelines in the Middle East.

The Arab states used the Soviet ploy as an opportunity to regroup for ‘round 3’. First, in mid-May, Egypt, Syria and Jordan formed a mutual defense pact against Israel. Then Egypt closed the straits of Tiran and expelled the UN peacekeeping forces. U-Thant very surprisingly removed the UN troops within a few days, leaving the field open to Nasser and his war machine. For that, U-Thant earned the sobriquet "bungling Burmese." Then Egypt engaged in illegal violation of Israel’s air space with aerial spying by means of fly-overs in the area of Dimona where Israel had its nuclear reactor. Finally, Egypt mobilized its troops and massed armored brigades on the Israeli border. By June 1, the stage was set for war; and Nasser began announcing to the world that it was finally time for the Zionist stain on Arab honor to be expunged with Jewish blood.

With missiles only minutes away from major Israeli cities, troops and armor and air force of hostile nations primed for attack on three separate fronts; the Straits of Tiran closed; the Arab world clamored for the destruction of Israel and the butchery of its Jewish inhabitants, while Israel approached the UN, USA, France and UK in search of diplomatic solutions. Israel’s President made a groveling speech at the UN in which he implored the Arab states, especially Egypt, to pull back from the brink of war.

It is important to understand that at this point Egypt had perpetrated six specific actions which, in international law, qualify as casus belli, legal justification for war.
  • Conspiring with other belligerent countries (in this case, Syria and Jordan) for a coordinated attack.
    Closing Israel’s access to international waterways (the straits of Tiran).
    Violating the terms of the 1956 armistice by re-militarizing the Sinai.
    Expelling the UN and USA peace-keeping troops form the Sinai.
    Perpetrating illegal spy-plane fly-overs to reconnoiter Israeli sensitive areas.
    Massing troops and tanks on Israel’s borders.
Israel could have legally launched a defensive war after any one of these casus belli. It chose, instead, to try diplomacy, which not only failed to resolve the problem, but gave Egypt and Syria time to accelerate their own preparations for invasion.

Finally, in the early morning of June 5, when Israeli intelligence indicated that Egypt was about to attack, Israel launched its pre-emptive strike. In doing so, it applied the Kennedy doctrine developed during the Cuban Missile Crisis (1962): no state need wait until attacked before taking defensive action. The Soviet missiles in Cuba were adequate provocation for the US blockade. The Arabs’ massive build-up and threats of annihilation were adequate provocation for Israel’s attack.

http://hnn.us/roundup/entries/39729.html
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Old 12-23-2007, 04:28 PM
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Default Hasbara excuses don't count.

Hasbara1 you are so full of doggy doo doo. Fact Israel attacked first that makes Israel the aggressor end of story.

Hasbara1 excuses don't count.

Israel may try to excuse their actions with as many what ifs. But what ifs don't count in History. Israel did end of story.
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Old 12-23-2007, 04:58 PM
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Default The Aggressor is the creator of the Casus Belli

Casus Belli is legal cause for war. No one is required to wait to be attacked before striking.

Quote:
8. Statement by President Nasser to Members of the Egyptian National Assembly, 29 May 1967:

Brothers, when Brother Anwar as-Sadat informed me of your decision to meet me I told him that I myself was prepared to call on you at the National Assembly, but he said you were determined to come. I therefore responded to this and I thank you heartily for your consideration.
...

The circumstances through which we are now passing are in fact difficult ones because we are not only confronting Israel but also those who created Israel and who are behind Israel. We are confronting Israel and the West as well -the West, which created Israel and which despised us Arabs and which ignored us before and since 1948.
....

The spiritual aspect involves the renaissance of the Arab nation, the revival of the Palestine question, and the restoration of confidence to every Arab and to every Palestinian. This is on the basis that if we were able to restore conditions to what they were before 1956, God will surely help and urge us to restore the situation to what it was in 1948

..........

Preparations have already been made. We are now ready to confront Israel. ....... Now we are ready for the confrontation. We are now ready to deal with the entire Palestine question.
....
The issue now at hand is not the Gulf of Aqaba, the Straits of Tiran, or the withdrawal of the UNEF, but the rights of the Palestine people.
...
I said yesterday that the States that champion freedom and peace have supported us. I spoke of the support given us by India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Yugoslavia, Malaysia, the Chinese People's Republic and the Asian and African States.

...
When I also asked for all kinds of arms they [USSR] gave them to us. When I met Shams Badran yesterday he handed me a message from the Soviet Premier Kosygin saying that the USSR supported us in this battle and would not allow any Power to intervene....

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Foreign+Re...ers+of+the.htm
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Old 12-23-2007, 05:12 PM
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Default Fact Israel make a strike first.

Israel can say that an ant crawling over the sand is a Casus Belli but that does not automatically make it a Casus Belli. If you think that the Israeli case is so strong then why has Israel not taken it to court???

The more you edit about the rights of Israel to more you make Israel sound like a small school boy saying "It's not my fault".

Fact Israel make a strike first.

End of story. The rest is just Israeli excuses.

Last edited by SenaxFlatulus; 01-30-2008 at 07:35 AM. Reason: Using symbols to bypass the word censor
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Old 12-27-2007, 08:14 PM
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Default Ashley, Ashley, Ashley...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashleykennedy View Post
Israel can say that an ant crawling over the sand is a Casus Belli but that does not automatically make it a Casus Belli. If you think that the Israeli case is so strong then why has Israel not taken it to court???

The more you b*tch about the rights of Israel to more you make Israel sound like a small school boy saying "It's not my fault".

Fact Israel make a strike first.

End of story. The rest is just Israeli excuses.
You just don't get it, do you? It was you complaining that Israel struck first. And Egypt struck first a couple other times, didn't it?

ps -- there is a difference between a reason and an 'excuse'. Traditionally the first strike has implied the aggressor, but it is by no means writ in stone; nor is the first strike always a bomb or an invasion. But these finer points pass right by you. For you it is enough to merely blame everything on Israel and those nasty Joooos.
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