Thank you for a polite and well thought out response.

Your argument seems to be, since both party's are overly violent, they should be given equal merit. I disagree. The violence, no matter how deplorable, does not in any way alter or mitigate the basic facts of the Middle East. Israel is not intent on regional hegemony. They only want to live peacefully in the land that they are currently residing in. They want the right of self-determination. The Palestinians, on the other hand, want this and a little bit more. They want all the land of Palestine, and all the land of Israel to boot. One has only to look at the charters of Hamas, Hezbollah, and Fatah to see that this is true.

You can be sure I'll look it up. However, Barack's words really won't change things, as both you and I know.

But why don't they suicide bomb Egypt, or Jordan, or Lebanon? Why only Israel? The obvious answer is religious bigotry, on the part of the arabs. Which, in a word, is the cause of the problem in the Middle East.

Look, to draw a comparison, after 16 years, the United States left Vietnam. Even though we were trying to fight for a people's freedom, after 16 years, we said enough was enough. Let's stop fighting and have peace. But it's been 60 years in Palestine, and Palestinians are still fomenting hate and killing. That's all they do. At the risk of sounding glib, it's the national pasttime of Palestinians. The American Negro in America, who suffered much worse deprivations at the hands of his Southern slave-masters, did not go around randomly killing white people in retaliation at any point in American history. The Palestinians have been doing this even before Israel was a nation. Arabs have been killing Jews since 1929. My point is that there is an elephant in the room which good people of the West simply choose to ignore: Palestinians, by and large, are religious bigots who will not give an inch of land to another ethnic group, particularly the Jews.

Does that slogan claim ALL of the West Bank?

But Israel has returned land, even settled land, on numerous occasions. Why settle it? Because it's a bargaining chip for peace. How else do you deal with religious bigots?

My answer is, because they don't want to. If there had been enough people against the action in Iraq, the US would never have done it. There aren't enough people in Palestine who want peace. They want war. They want to martyr themselves on Israeli citizens.

Weak argument. This is the typical lie that the arab propaganda machine want you to look at. Proportional death counts do not necessarily make right. The US lost far fewer men than the Japanese in World War II, but the disproportion in fatalities doesn't necessarily mean that America was wrong. Israel has an obligation to protect its people. If the Hamas's murderers are inept and inefficient, that's their own fault.

In my opinion, there has been no radicalization of the Palestinian populace. They have been killing Jews since 1929, long before Israel was a state. Israel has become more callous, and some of its members have become radicalized. But the only way to deal with an animal is to cage it, and, in my opinion, the Palestinians are animals. They indoctrinate their youth in hate, they target and kill innocent women and children, and they export terror against governments who only support their enemy financially.


This will take some research.


I will.

And you.

expecting reasoned, rational behavior of the middle east participants is as unlikely as our congress balancing the budget

__________________
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."
-Dr Seuss
You should have heard what i meant to say (apologies to Thelonious Monk)
"The police are not here to cause disorder....
...The police are here to preserve disorder."
Hon. Richard J. Daley
Chicago, 1968

Okay, I found some quotes that may help.


Big Lies, Demolishing The Myths of the Propaganda War Against Israel, by David Meir-Levi.

Regarding the 1948 Arab-Israeli War: "Israel actually offered to return land it had acquired while defending itself against the Arab aggression in exchange for a formal peace. It made this offer during the Rhodes Armistice talks and Lausanne conference in 1949. The Arab rulers refused the land because they wanted to maintain a state of war in order to destroy the Jewish state. Had Israel's offer been accepted, there could have been prompt and just resolution to all the problems that have afflicted the region since."

And from the same author, about the Six Day War:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles...5-210357CAE7B7

I hope this helps.

And this pretty much sums up my point. After 59 years, a reasoned peace would have been obtained by now had both parties wanted one. The time has come to take a side, to say one side is more right, or less wrong than the other. Israel, without question, has historically shown its desire for peace. Any reasonable person can see this, because Palestine has nothing else to offer them except peace. Muslim Arabs live in Israel, and many are members of the Knesset. The Palestinians, on the other hand, foment violence at every opportunity, by whatever means is available to them. An unarmed Jew in the West Bank is a dead man. Palestinians, as a rule, indoctrinate their youth in hate in children's books and schools. Their leaders all call for Israel's destruction. And yet, in our politically correct culture, we some how find moral equivalency between these two peoples.

Bobcat1 – I’ll try to cover as much as I can, but as I’m jetlagged (it’s about 6am in Australia) and we’re making very long posts, I’ll try to touch the most important points we’ve been going back and forth about.

What I’m trying to point out in general has to do with social conditioning. If you can change the conditions in which a population lives, in this case the Palestinian people, you can (in time) eradicate the “Breeding grounds” of terrorist radicalization and recruitment.

The Palestinian people, who are in no way a representation of “The Arab World”, have (as a people) been living under extremely unpleasant conditions for many years. Before 1967 under Jordanian and Egyptian governance (which we both agree didn’t do much good for them), until 1948 under British Imperialism, and prior to that under the Turkish Empire. All in all, it hasn’t been a piece of cake for them in the last 100 years (at least).

As an extension to the Ehud Barrack quote, and perhaps the point I was trying to make when I brought it up. Do you remember George Bush saying (in reference to Iraq) that he “Wouldn’t Like” to be occupied. This is what it’s about, they don’t “like” their current (and recent) situation, and the conditions in which they live in have created an extremely productive “Opportunity” for radicals and radical thinkers to radicalize the populace. This is why the charters of Hammas, Hezbollah, and Fattah read the way they do (and BTW Hezbollah are Lebanese and not considered Palestinians).

As a side note to this issue, it goes hand in hand with why I personally believe that the invasion and occupation of Afghanistan & Iraq will only widen the plague of terrorism in the world (and the numbers are currently in line with this concept), and create easier conditions for extremists to recruit young and hopeless individuals who may or may not have been affected by the “Coalition” strike personally.
(a) They are occupied. (b) They are not happy about it. (c) They join the “Resistance”.

Change the social conditioning and in time you will win the “War on Terror”. Invading countries, bombing them to shambles, and occupying them for 6-7 years will only create more hatred towards the “American Satan” – If you’re catching my drift…

The comparison to Vietnam and Slavery is useless. The American government went to Vietnam because of the cold war, you say “Freedom” I say “Anti-Communism” (Potatoes & Potato’s). Either way, the American troops left and the Vietnamese people were left to deal with the conditions that their nation was left in… a country in shambles. Nonetheless, they didn’t have to deal with the American troops any longer. In comparison, the Palestinians and Israelis have a small piece of land in their hands (currently the Israelis hands), and they have to find a way to get along because neither one is going anywhere.

With Slavery, although not perfectly (yet), the African-American populace is living in a coexistence within the US, they have the same rights, same opportunities, education system, etc. (like I said, not perfect, but technically) To make my point very clear, there is a somewhat realistic chance that a black politician will become the US President by the end of the year. In comparison, the Palestinians are living in “gated communities” that can only be compared to the finest refugee camps in Darfur. They are at about 40% unemployment, a little over $1,000 GDP, sewers are bursting in the streets, and they rely on the “Good Will” of thy neighbours for energy, water, medical supplies, and other basic needs. They aren’t slaves, they are more like prisoners.

I think you are a bit confused, but please correct me if I’m wrong. The only Palestinians that exist in our world are the 3.5 million living in the West Bank & Gaza Strip, there are no other Palestinians. With that said, they don’t have land to give, most of the land that was supposedly theirs in 1948 was taken away in 1967. It wasn’t their fault and it wasn’t Israel’s fault, but they (Palestinians) are the ones who have land claims to make and it’s not the other way around.

It claims extended parts of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and even (you guessed it) Iraq.

Why the extensive building in the West Bank and Jerusalem areas, yet almost nothing going on in the Golan Heights?
This is (like you said) for negotiating reasons and about what areas can be negotiated vs. what’s taboo. If and when the Israeli government gives more bits and pieces of land back to the Palestinian people, they will have a lot on their hands.

The first issue is which territories, the “Holy Land” is very small (that’s why I wanted you to look at the maps and compare between the differences). The second issue is Jerusalem, and this is going to be quite an issue, especially when it comes to discussing the future of the “Old City”. The final issue is settling with the Jewish settlers (financially), and removing/relocating them (with the IDF assistance if needed).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You think that what Israel wants is peace and what the Palestinians want is to get rid of the Jewish populace. I can assure you that it’s a little more complex than that. You keep comparing the Israeli/Palestinian conflict to the US in some way, but this is a very different conflict that simply cannot be compared with anything that the US has ever been involved with.

I would argue that after 40 years of occupation it will take some time to heal all of the wounds from the battle. Give people fear and they’ll go to war, give people hope and they’ll want to live to see another day (the aforementioned social conditioning – true about Iraq as well).

That’s reality, not “Arab propaganda”. You have about 6 million Israelis living life to its fullest and 3.5 Palestinians living behind walls and fences. You have a small town of 20,000 civilians in the south of Israel that gets rocketed by Qassam rockets (which could be compared to firecrackers) vs. the 1.5 million Gaza Cities populace who are basically caged by the Israeli armed forces, with the latest and greatest aerial combat missiles and air-striking technologies, tanks and other “War toys”.

To subjugate the entire Palestinian population to these conditions (and/or cutting off supplies as well) because of some firecrackers being shot at a small town is what I consider unreasonable measures, that’s just my opinion though.

The radicalization occurs when the 3.5 million people, whom you consider “An Animal”, are caged. How would you like to live in a cage because of no other reason than the lottery of life?
If you are a criminal you should go to jail, Yes!
But if you’re born to a Palestinian family, you’re pretty much born in jail.

Time for me to try and sleep again…
Much respect, Peace.

__________________
I love Us All,
Ziggy
The Ziggy Articles

ziggy, get some sleep before responding. I'm in no big hurry here.

I hear what you're saying here, and I'm sure it's true to some extent. But none of this information about socializing and conditioning has practical value to either of the parties, particularly since the Palestinians are actively conditioning their youth to hate and violence. How can you teach the mad dog to live outside the cage if, every time you let him out of the cage, he bites you? Gaza is a case in point. Israel left Gaza unilaterally. It's no longer occupied. How did they decide to reward Israel for ending their occupation? They use their newfound freedom and "unoccupied status" to attack Israel in any way they can. Why do they do it? Their occupation is over. What could they possibly be objecting to? Given this behavior, the only practical conclusion one can draw is that the occupation is not the issue. The issue is the Zionist entity which they are all united in wanting to destroy.

I think the comparison with the Black population is a good one. Blacks do have their militant groups. However, by and large, they are a peaceful people, even though they suffered worse deprivations for a longer period than any Palestinian could have ever dreamed. But these good people never resorted to violence, because they were not born to a culture of violence. The Arab culture sees violence differently though: they see violence only as a means to an end. There was no "violent conditioning" before Arabs attacked Jews in riots in 1929; there was no "negative socializing" when Arab states invade Israel in 1948 and 1967. Saudi Arabia still is in a state of war against Israel to this very day.

I have no disagreement with these figures, if that's what you're asking.

My point was not the land they have to give, but the land they are claiming, which all the Palestinian leadership defines as encompassing the whole of Israel. Again, there is no Palestinian (or for that matter Arab) political entity which recognizes Israel's right to exist. To me, this speaks volumes.

I agree it was neither of their faults. But the Palestinians aren't detonating suicide bombs in Cairo, or Amman, or even Damascus. They choose to do it against the only non-Muslim state in the region. Israel.

I'll check it out. You're keeping me very busy, my friend.

Well, Jerusalem is a special case. It's the most holy site for most Jews.

Prior to the wall being built, Israel's death toll was much greater. Palestine was not always as fragmented and garrisoned as it is today. This occurred as a consequence of Palestinian violence. Now, you are telling me that this garrisoning is the cause of Palestinian violence. Well, in some ways it's both, but the violence first has to stop if the occupation is expected to end. It can't be the other way around.

I disagree. History is full of historical examples of oppressed peoples who have managed to exist in peace. All the peoples subjugated by the Romans, the Ottomans, the Mongols who didn't raise arms against their conquerors provide ample evidence of this. At some point, conquered people's are supposed to have peace. Why not Palestine? My contention is that the Palestinian leadership doesn't want peace.

Good night, and peace.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_%28group%29

I looked through these links, and I was already familiar with the Irgun and the Stern gang. While their violence was indeed deplorable, it also occurred as a consequence of Arab violence against Jews in the region.

I couldn't find the Barak quote. Maybe I'll run into it at some future time.

But, again, for me, it's not an issue of moral equivalency due to senseless violence on both parties. It's an issue of what do these people want. The stated purpose of the Hamas leadership is to destroy Israel, while Israel's stated purpose is only to have security for its people. For me, that tips the scales in favor of Israel.

How are the Palestinians supposed to help Israel fight terrorism?!! That would be funny if it weren't so sad. Shortly before the 2nd Intifada in 2000, Israel agreed to arm the Palestinians and go on joint patrols with them. In fact they did start them some days before the Intifada started. On one of the first days of this joint venture, in the city of Kalkilya, a Palestinian police officer working with Israeli police on a joint patrol opened fire and killed his Israeli counterpart.

Not only can they not deliver on the day after, they have not been able to deliver yet.

If you take a look at a map, or if indeed you have been to Israel as you say you have, you would know that it would be very difficult for any citizen, in the IDF or not, to be unaware of how the ordinary Palestinian lives his/her life. In a state that is barely 9 miles wide in places, I don't doubt he knows how Palestinian Arabs live as well as he knows how the Jews live. Do you honestly think Jews like living in a state of siege? If you have been to Israel as you say you have, you will have experienced Israeli security. The IDF and how it operates is a direct result of Palestinian words and actions.

Yes no doubt they were frustrated with Fatah, which was thoroughly corrupt. Actually they have done polls and discovered that the 3.5 million are indeed in the majority in favor of violence toward Israel. Funny how you ask that question as if you are suggesting that the majority is not pro-violence and then imply that whatever the case, the reason for it -- the blame-- is fundamentally Israel's.

And you try to tell us that you are neutral? I don't think so! Excusing violence in direct contravention of the Oslo accords and international law in favor of one side demonstrates your bias.

I live near the US border in a small town (less than 20,000) but I tell you I would be really annoyed if the government decided that they would just ignore a bunch of rockets shooting over from the Mexican side. Seven dead is seven innocent human beings. I would not really enjoy having to wait for a siren to tell me to run down into the basement several times a day, with a good chance that when I came back upstairs my house would have a giant hole in it?

Who determines what constitutes a "reasonable response?" In my view, a reasonable response is whatever makes the rockets stop, ie whatever it takes. Israel has shown tremendous restraint. Are you aware that the Hamas Charter calls for the destruction of Israel? The Fatah Charter is hardly better.

That is not exactly right. Here's a good read: http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm

Those Palestinians have been radicalized for a long long time. In fact
Because They Hate: A Survivor of Islamic Terror Warns America
By Brigitte Gabriel pg 119
here

__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4x0bU...watch_response
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL0C2QvqIlo#
"The courageous over the infidels, make war for Allah and are not afraid... This is the depiction of the army of Allah that will come at Allah's decree, from here or from there, to liberate these lands from the defilement of the Jews, for Allah was angry with them in his book and called them once 'monkeys,' once 'swine,' and once 'donkeys.'" (Palestinian TV, March 30, 2001)

I just read Ziggy's last post I would just like to comment on this:

You have about 6 million Israelis living life to its fullest and 3.5 Palestinians living behind walls and fences.

Did you ask topaz what it means to him to be "living life to its fullest?" Does that mean that he can drive through any of the Arab countries to go visit someone in Europe? What does it mean to have an Israeli stamp on your passport? What percentage of the population has had a family member killed, perhaps blown up? What percentage of the Israeli population has been maimed? How many times have Palestinians gone to a party on Friday night (to use your example) or a dance or restaurant and been blown into little pieces by Israelis? I'm not sure how normal that is.

As for the plight of the Palestinians, only in Jordan does the Palestinian get automatic citizenship. They are generally treated like dirt throughout the whole middle east. Israel actually treats them better (with the exception of Hamas in Gaza for obvious reasons) than their Arab brothers in Syria & Lebanon. Israeli Palestinians are considered 'rich' by the Egyptians. Do you know why?

Palestinians were kicked out of Iraq and Kuwait by the locals, not by the U.S.
PLO was kicked out of Jordan and Lebanon for violence. Check out Black September in Jordan.

Estimates of the number of the people killed in the ten days of Black September range from three thousand to more than five thousand, although exact numbers are unknown. The Palestinian death toll in 11 days of fighting was estimated at 3,400, though Arafat claimed that 20,000 had been killed.[5] one source

The PLO was born and raised in violence. I believe that the Arabs created & nurtured the Palestinian refugees in order to use them as a weapon against Israel and to get international leverage. As if some 22 Arab states in the UN wasn't enough, or some 52 or more Islamic States wasn't sufficient political leverage. Or that Arabs own the mass of the Arabic Pennisula. Add to that they control the main part of the world's oil and there is plenty of leverage on that side. The 'poor Palestinians' are supported financially almost entirely by the West. The Arabs don't do diddly for them. I figure it's a kind of dhimmi tax they put on us...to pay for these Arab refugees in perpetuity.

I do think that you will see eventually that the Arabs have created their own monster. That monster will live to bite its Arab brothers, and its Arab brothers will one day bite back, as I believe some are in Iraq.

__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4x0bU...watch_response
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL0C2QvqIlo#
"The courageous over the infidels, make war for Allah and are not afraid... This is the depiction of the army of Allah that will come at Allah's decree, from here or from there, to liberate these lands from the defilement of the Jews, for Allah was angry with them in his book and called them once 'monkeys,' once 'swine,' and once 'donkeys.'" (Palestinian TV, March 30, 2001)

Boy Loses Leg, Brother Wounded in Sderot Kassam Attack
by Hana Levi Julian and Gil Ronen

An eight-year-old boy and his 19-year-old brother were seriously wounded Saturday evening in a Kassam rocket attack on Sderot. The barrage sent 11 people into emotional shock in addition to the casualties.

Both boys were wounded in the lower limbs and were rushed into surgery after they were evacuated by Magen David Adom paramedics to Barzilai Hospital in Ashkelon. The youngster reportedly lost part of his leg in the blast, according to media sources. His older brother suffered shrapnel wounds as well. The boys' 15-year-old brother and their mother were also sent to the hospital to be treated for emotional shock.

The family was running for cover when one of the enemy rockets landed about two meters from them. Another rocket landed close to a residential building.

A total of five rockets were fired, three of which exploded in the center of Sderot. The other two slammed into areas just outside the city. Terrorists from Islamic Jihad’s Al-Quds Brigades gang claimed responsibility for the attack.

Another rocket was fired at southern Israel about two hours later, landing in a kibbutz in the Sha'ar HaNegev Regional Council area. No one was injured and no damage was reported.

Early Sabbath morning, Gaza terrorists twice attacked the western Negev. A mortar shell first slammed into an area near the Erez checkpoint; several people were treated for emotional shock following the explosion. A second attack sent two rockets into the Shaar HaNegev Regional Council area. No injuries or damage were reported.

IDF Retaliation
The IDF immediately retaliated with a strike on a terrorist squad spotted near a group of ready-to-fire rocket launchers in the nearby Gaza town of Beit Hanoun in northern Gaza. Soldiers confirmed several hits and Palestinian Authority sources later reported that one member of the terrorist cell was seriously injured.

The IDF also attacked four more rocket launch sites at noontime and identified hits as well. A terrorist was killed in one of the attacks.

source

__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4x0bU...watch_response
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL0C2QvqIlo#
"The courageous over the infidels, make war for Allah and are not afraid... This is the depiction of the army of Allah that will come at Allah's decree, from here or from there, to liberate these lands from the defilement of the Jews, for Allah was angry with them in his book and called them once 'monkeys,' once 'swine,' and once 'donkeys.'" (Palestinian TV, March 30, 2001)