Welcome to the jungle concheet.
I finally had some sleep, thanks Bobcat1.
We have some long posts going on so (again) I might miss a few things along the way but I’ll try to get as much as I can. This post was written for both of you...

I’ll start with the Non-biased / Neutral issue.
Just because I’m raising a few points about the Israelis imperfections, doesn’t mean that I’m pro-Hammas. Please don’t mistake my sympathy for 3.5 million people with the encouraging of terrorism or the killing of Jews. For whatever its worth, I’m Jewish and both of parents are Jews that were born in Israel (many of my family members, and good friends still live there).

What international laws have the Israeli government broken recently? Are you suggesting that violence on one side is permitted and that the other side is supposed to turn the other cheek?

We’re talking about 40 years of occupation. We can dance around the history of the Palestinians only to agree that the so-called “Arab World” has left them stranded, and that the Arab World didn’t like the fact that the UN declared parts of the “Holy Land” as a Jewish state after WW2. There was violence pre 1948, and there was war shortly after. I think we’re past asking who started it, because whomever it was lived about three generations ago.

And here we are today, with 3.5 Million Palestinians living behind fences and walls in land that was given to them by the UN in 1948, and some additional parts are being occupied by Israel.

And what exactly are the Palestinians?

What siege? They check your wife’s purse when you go to the mall?!
Since I’ve been to Israel (and you obviously haven’t) I will tell you first hand that you have an unfortunate misconception about an Israelis life in Israel. If you haven’t heard, Tel-Aviv is considered one of the top 10 party/nightlife cities in Europe… I wonder where they would place Gaza city on that list.

So keeping them caged is going to help them how?
I’m not sure I follow what you’re suggesting in terms of “Course of action” to UN-radicalize the 3.5 million populace of the Gaza Strip & West Bank. You can argue that the majority of Palestinians are pro-violence and the majority of Israelis are pro-peace, but I promise you that I will give you some numbers about the Israeli side a little later on.

With that said, I would appreciate a source in regards to “The majority of Palestinians being pro-violence”. The fact that they have only two parties (which equally suck) doesn’t mean that 3.5 million people believe that all Jews must die and Israel has no right to exist, and even if most Palestinians are anti-peace (which is possible in it's current suggested form) I’ll continue to argue that it’s easy to radicalize people when they live in horrendous conditions as the Palestinian people do, and that it’s a humanity issue that needs to be addressed both by Israel and the international community ASAP.

If you’re talking about the PNA populace you should know that their GDP is about $1,500, that’s quite a shocking figure which puts them just below Sudan and just ahead of Rwanda. With that said, I’m not sure why Egyptians (GDP $4,800) would consider them rich, unless of course they’re talking about the Israeli/Arab population. They live within the Israeli borders, have an Israeli ID, and although they’re considered second class citizens they have much better financial options, (and pretty normal living conditions) then thy neighbours behind the fences and walls. They vote in the Israeli elections and have three parties (10 Knesset members) that represent them. They are in no way comparable to the Palestinian populace (Gaza or West Bank). They are rich because they are a part of the somewhat richer Israeli society (GDP $18,000).

This brings me to that issue that I wanted to bring up in regards to politics in Israel. We all know about Hammas and their charter, and you keep reminding me (as if I don’t know) that they’ve expressed a position that doesn’t recognize Israel’s right to exist. I agree that the Israeli government doesn’t have a negotiating partner on the Palestinian side at this time, but have you ever asked yourself what the Israeli political map really looks like?

Here’s a brief explanation on what I call “The Israeli 12 party system” (it’s been better and worse, but in reality no Israeli PM has stayed in office for his full term since Shamir finished his term in 1992).

The party with the most seats gets the PM position, appoints the government officials (Defence, Treasury, Education, etc. – Secretaries) through brokering deals in order to construct a majority (over 60 Knesset members).

What we have in Israel since 2006 is as follows:
1. Kadima – 29
2. Labour-Meimad – 19
3. Likud – 12
4. Shas -12
5. Yisrael Beiteinu – 11
6. National Religious Party – 9
7. Gil – 7
8. United Torah Judaism – 6
9. Meretz – 5
10. Ta’al – 4
11. Hadash – 3
12. Balad – 3

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knesset

You can read about each party, but here’s the quick version…

Numbers 1 & 7 are both new parties (ran for the first time in 2006), they are considered moderate/centrist parties, but a good portion of their members were brought together from right-wing parties in order to appeal to a broader voting branch. Number 7 (Gil) was created to address the pensioners in Israel, but in terms of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict they could be considered wild cards. I will continue to argue that even the most moderate members have a rightward tendency (and the recent Olmert actions strengthen my argument) when it comes to the Palestinian issue.

Number 4, 6 & 8 are religious parties (27 members). almost a third of the Israeli populace is religious enough to vote for a party that represents their religious “Sub-culture” interests. In short (and in somewhat over generalized terms) they are a financial burden on the government (don’t work/only study the bible/have many children/get social support because of all of the above). They don’t serve in the IDF (although it’s a 3 year mandatory service in Israel). And most importantly they are anti-compromise with the Palestinians and pro-settlement building.

Numbers 3 & 5 represents right wing parties (another 23 members), they share the anti-compromise agenda with the religious parties, and they’ve been trying to knock Olmert out of office for a long time now. Sharon used to lead this party, and just before he had his political career/life ending stroke he realized that unity was needed and decided to form Kadima.

I’ll stop here and get to the point I’m trying to make. The majority of Israelis (50/120 Knesset members plus whatever percentage from the 36 members from the so-called centrist parties) are not really for peace, they might say they are for peace (which is good for PR and international affairs) but you have to ask yourselves what kind of peace they are talking about.

If I’m trying to sell you a television for $500 and all you wanted was a nice stereo system for less than $200, would you buy the television? I don’t even sell stereos in my store but I continue to tell you that the television is a good bargain and that you should take it, would you buy the television? In other words, if the Israeli government isn’t willing to seriously negotiate with the Palestinians they in return will never take the offer.

I’ve said before that Hammas is not a negotiating partner, and for that matter, Arafat wasn’t much of a partner either. My point is, whether you like to admit it or not, that the Palestinian people have been denied basic human rights and somewhat normal living standards for too long, do you expect 3.5 million people to live in these conditions and not retaliate? I would suggest you read about the Jewish Rebellion in the Nazi Ghettoes in WW2, it’s not exactly the same, but in conceptual terms (minus the ethnic cleansing) it’s not so different.

This brings me to my final point about slavery in the US, or the point that Bobcat1 stands behind. The African-Americans were integrated within white America. They were never caged behind fences or walls, and although what they went through is atrocious in many other ways, there aren’t enough correlating points between the two. We can try to compare between the Native American Indians in the US, the Aboriginals in Australia, and/or any other sub-cultures who have now become a peaceful part of these nations’ societies. The conditions that the Palestinian people are living in are hardly comparable to any of the aforementioned, but we can look into some of the recent (and not so recent) conflicts in Africa and perhaps draw some additional parallels. In other words, each case is different and comparing between apples and oranges won’t get us anywhere.

__________________
I love Us All,
Ziggy
The Ziggy Articles

Here's something to consider in regards to the point I've been trying to make about "Social Conditioning"...

Maslow's hierarchy of needs



Enjoy the read...

__________________
I love Us All,
Ziggy
The Ziggy Articles

Last post first.

I've got a couple of degrees in psycho-jiggly and I will tell you right now that Maslow was not talking about a bunch of backward Arabs. Maslow is strictly middle class white.

Try a more anthropological approach, as here: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...icle%2FPrinter

__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4x0bU...watch_response
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL0C2QvqIlo#
"The courageous over the infidels, make war for Allah and are not afraid... This is the depiction of the army of Allah that will come at Allah's decree, from here or from there, to liberate these lands from the defilement of the Jews, for Allah was angry with them in his book and called them once 'monkeys,' once 'swine,' and once 'donkeys.'" (Palestinian TV, March 30, 2001)

Thanks
No I never suggested that you were 'encouraging' terrorism or Jew-killing, just that your posts appear to me to be apologetics for it. Regarding your bio, I make it a habit of totally disregarding what other posters tell me about who and what they are, since it is unverifiable, and rather listen closely to the substance of what they post. I believe that minimizing the suffering of one group and maximizing (and rationalizing) the suffering of another is a form of bias.

Furthermore, I believe that when you blame Israel for who and what the Palestinians are, you are effectively diminishing the Palestinians as human beings, and suggest that they are unable to take responsibility for themselves, but are rather perennial victims who can do nothing or become nothing by themselves. I don't buy that. I think we are all responsible for our own actions, even though it may be harder if you are born into a rigid culture milieu such as Islam.

I don't buy the argument that because one side does something the other side is supposed to return the favor. By that argument Israel would not bother to attempt to distinguish between civilians and militants, for example -- and Israel does try to do so, despite the fact that Palestinian militants do not wear uniforms to distinguish themselves from civilians. By that argument Israel would be totally justified in bombing marketplaces just to kill Palestinians, as the Palestinians try to kill Israelis. But no, I do not think Israel should turn the other cheek. A country has a duty to protect its population from attacks by others.

I do believe that the Palestinians should try to solve this problem with talks and negotiations, ie peacefully. But Article 13 of the Hamas Charter says specifically :

• Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know."

This is not the fault of Israel.
I notice that you didn't comment on the 8 year old boy that lost his leg in Sderot yesterday and will not be partying for a long time if ever. Talking to you is like trying to believe that these things never happened!

There is nothing stopping the Gazans from partying to their hearts' content except themselves. They prefer to make pipe bombs from the sewer pipes and destroy the greenhouses and burn the synagogues.

Help whom? If you have a wild animal, you either keep him from getting at you by a cage or neutralize him some other way... what do you suggest?
I don't know what will unradicalize the Palestinian Arabs except themselves. We are all responsible for our own selves, as I have said.

Are you kidding? The 'international community' has been addressing the issue for 60 years. In fact, they have been addressing it to the detriment of other serious humanitarian issues such as the situation in Sudan, Kenya, Congo, Chad, Haiti. In Haiti they are eating dirt cookies.

The Palestinians have their very own UN organ (UNRWA) and the rest of the world's refugees have the other one. Palestinian refugees have more advantages, make more money than any other refugees in the world. In other places more people are killed, more people displaced, more woman are raped, more children are kidnapped, more people are hungry.....

I will address the rest of your post in a bit...

__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4x0bU...watch_response
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL0C2QvqIlo#
"The courageous over the infidels, make war for Allah and are not afraid... This is the depiction of the army of Allah that will come at Allah's decree, from here or from there, to liberate these lands from the defilement of the Jews, for Allah was angry with them in his book and called them once 'monkeys,' once 'swine,' and once 'donkeys.'" (Palestinian TV, March 30, 2001)

source: majority of Palestinians approve of violence against Israel:

http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=12451

see also:

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache...lnk&cd=2&gl=us

&

http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/20...ssrelease.html

__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4x0bU...watch_response
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL0C2QvqIlo#
"The courageous over the infidels, make war for Allah and are not afraid... This is the depiction of the army of Allah that will come at Allah's decree, from here or from there, to liberate these lands from the defilement of the Jews, for Allah was angry with them in his book and called them once 'monkeys,' once 'swine,' and once 'donkeys.'" (Palestinian TV, March 30, 2001)

The majority of Israelis are for peace. How can you say that they are "not really" for peace? Do you think they enjoy seeing their women and children blown to bits every so often? That is a highly presumptive position and once again demonstrates your bias for all of your protestations.

What kind of peace are the Palestinians talking about? Are the Palestinians really for peace? What kind of peace are they talking about? If you read the links above, you will see what their kind of peace includes.

If that is your point, that the Israeli government is not really for peace, but the Palestinians really are, you will have to do a lot more than you have so far to demonstrate it.

__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4x0bU...watch_response
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL0C2QvqIlo#
"The courageous over the infidels, make war for Allah and are not afraid... This is the depiction of the army of Allah that will come at Allah's decree, from here or from there, to liberate these lands from the defilement of the Jews, for Allah was angry with them in his book and called them once 'monkeys,' once 'swine,' and once 'donkeys.'" (Palestinian TV, March 30, 2001)

All of these links only prove my point...

From the first link:

From the second link:

How do you expect people to react to such conditions?
It's a simple equation, the worse the conditions are, the more hate people feel.

__________________
I love Us All,
Ziggy
The Ziggy Articles

The governments actions, the claims that they make and the political parties that the Israeli people vote for.

Of course not, do you think the Palestinians enjoy it when their woman and children are killed and injured?

I'm just trying to open your mind to the fact that there are two sides doing bad things.

Here's a nice quote from one of your polls:
97% believe (Palestinians) the current US policy toward the Palestinian-Israeli conflict is biased in favor of Israel.
You prove them right!

It was never the kind that Israel is willing to give them.

If the Israeli government were to take a step forward and make a serious offer we would find out.

When things were a little calmer they outlined the important issues, I'm sure you know about them...

Never said they are, at the moment neither side is for peace...
The fact that Rabin was murdered proves that there are enough people on the Israeli side that don't want peace just as much as the next extreme Palestinian, with that said, the finger should be pointed in both directions!

Think about it...

__________________
I love Us All,
Ziggy
The Ziggy Articles

I lived in Israel in the 90’s, back when the Oslo accords were being negotiated. I’m telling you first handed that there were protest rallies happening on a regular basis that were anti-peace. Not only that, there were people carrying a coffin with Rabin’s name on it long before he was killed and shockingly, hundreds of thousands of Israelis attended these type of rallies.

Ironically, they were often attended (and key speeches were given) by BB Netanyahu who was the Opposition Leader in the Israeli government at the time, the infamous peace rally that took place on the night that Rabin was assassinated was organized as a statement to those who attended the anti-peace rallies. Rabin’s assassin (I. Amir) was a “Socially Conditioned” ignorant buffoon who basically represented the voice of those who were against the peace process. He chose to voice his opinion with the trigger of a gun.

I’ll say this again, there is no Palestinian negotiator for peace at this point in time, I’m not saying that the Palestinians are for peace and the Israelis aren’t, I’m saying they both aren’t. The Palestinians didn’t agree to the terms that were given to them for reasons that we can debate over but regardless of that, there was such a huge opposition to the terms that were offered back then from people on the Israeli side that it ended with the Israeli Prime minister being assassinated.

You can believe that the Israeli government wants “Peace”, and that the Israeli people want “Peace”, but you first have to ask yourself what exactly “Peace” is. It’s very easy to say you want something without getting into the fine print.

With that said if you want to know why I say that a majority of Israelis are against a “Real Peace” process (beyond the political map and demographic reality), the same Netanyahu is currently leading in the election polls in Israel. Do you think he suddenly changed his anti-peace rally ways?


I’m sorry for him and his family, what do you want me to say?
You don’t see me waving pictures of dead Palestinian children to discuss the issue, not to mention how your sarcasm about this poor boys future “Partying” is oh so benign.

And you say that I don’t treat them like humans…

What about Muslims in other countries? Maybe it’s because the Palestinians were born in “Gated Communities” and not merely because of religious orientation. How would you act if you were born in Gaza? It’s easy for you to say that we’re all responsible for our actions as you live in a small town next to the Mexican border (population under 20,000 if I remember correctly).

You can read all the anti-Islamic articles you want and personally believe (for whatever reasons) that all “Arabs are backwards”. That doesn’t change the fact that there are 1.5 Billion Muslims in the world and pretty much all of them live in better conditions than the 3.5 Million Palestinians.

You can feel whatever it is that you do about the way Islamic women are treated, but that’s a cultural issue that has been a way of life for them for over 1,000 years (long before American football ever existed).

For some odd reason, you feel so strongly about an 8 year old Jewish boy who was decapitated because of terrorism (the Islamic Jihad is a terrorist organization), yet you don’t care about terrorism in Iraq that is directed at Muslims, you just wave it off by saying things like “Bad things happen in war” and other such rhetoric.

You think that 3.5 Million Palestinians should be treated like “An animal” as if the animal that they are, each one individually, isn’t a human being (and then say that I’m dehumanizing them).

You think it’s alright to collectively punish 3.5 Million Palestinians because members of their community break international laws, yet you dismiss the lawbreaking actions that are committed by American troops in Iraq and call the offenders “A few rotten apples”. The Israeli governments building of the separation wall (as an example) is a blatant international crime against humanity, yet for some reason it doesn’t bother you at all.

In your opinion, the Israelis deserve a life of luxury and the Palestinians deserve zilch, as you say, they’re just “Backwards Arabs”.

I’m not your old friend Ashley. I’m not going to bombard you with numbers as a rebuttal to your narrow-mindedness. That was Ashley’s problem as well, observing only one side’s problematic behaviour disorder while completely disregarding the others. I’m not one to cry “Political Correctness” out loud, but to be frank your prejudice towards Islam, Muslims, Arabs and Palestinians is quite revolting.

Thanks for your response, ziggy. It is well-written and well thought out.

We've been discussing the radicalization of Palestinians. After forty years of non-stop Palestinian violence, I think one can speak to the radicalization of the average Israeli, too. To me, this explains the present stance of the Israeli hard-liners you describe. They are fed up with Muslim intransigance. The second layer of your pyramid was "security." There is no question the average Israeli has been deprived of his sense of security.

In my opinion, on the Palestinian, - indeed, on the Arab - side things are different. While segments of their population indeed have been radicalized, that does not explain the hate that is spewed in Egypt and Saudi Arabia and other Arab states. What does explain it is the Muslim view of their place in the world, i.e. their understanding of their religion, and the destiny of Islam as it interacts with non-Muslim nations and peoples.

The Koran makes it very clear that Allah is the owner of all infidel lands:

"Allah gradually reduces the land controlled by the unbelievers..." 21.44

"Allah grabs the land of the unbelievers…" 28:58

"Allah promises believers His sovereignty on earth. He will establish the authority of His chosen religion (Islam)…" 24:55

These lines from the Koran all imply military victory by usurping infidel territory. It implies that Muslims are the legitimate heirs of all the land on the earth. This alone, in my opinion, explains 80 years of Arab and Palestinian intolerance. Historically, Israel has offered peace. Perhaps the present day political situation in Israel is not so inclined to pacifism. I will accept your interpretation of public opinion in Israel. Even so, the fact is that the Muslim states are the real stumbling block, for, while it is possible to reason with Israel's hawks, if their security can be gauranteed, nothing you say will convince the religious extremists on the Arab side to lay down their arms.