Hamas return to attack israel. - Page 4

ziggy · #31 (**permalink**) 02-11-2008, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobcat1

Thanks for your response, ziggy. It is well-written and well thought out.

We've been discussing the radicalization of Palestinians. After forty years of non-stop Palestinian violence, I think one can speak to the radicalization of the average Israeli, too. To me, this explains the present stance of the Israeli hard-liners you describe. They are fed up with Muslim intransigance. The second layer of your pyramid was "security." There is no question the average Israeli has been deprived of his sense of security.

In my opinion, on the Palestinian, - indeed, on the Arab - side things are different. While segments of their population indeed have been radicalized, that does not explain the hate that is spewed in Egypt and Saudi Arabia and other Arab states. What does explain it is the Muslim view of their place in the world, i.e. their understanding of their religion, and the destiny of Islam as it interacts with non-Muslim nations and peoples.

The Koran makes it very clear that Allah is the owner of all infidel lands:

"Allah gradually reduces the land controlled by the unbelievers..." 21.44

"Allah grabs the land of the unbelievers…" 28:58

"Allah promises believers His sovereignty on earth. He will establish the authority of His chosen religion (Islam)…" 24:55

These lines from the Koran all imply military victory by usurping infidel territory. It implies that Muslims are the legitimate heirs of all the land on the earth. This alone, in my opinion, explains 80 years of Arab and Palestinian intolerance. Historically, Israel has offered peace. Perhaps the present day political situation in Israel is not so inclined to pacifism. I will accept your interpretation of public opinion in Israel. Even so, the fact is that the Muslim states are the real stumbling block, for, while it is possible to reason with Israel's hawks, if their security can be gauranteed, nothing you say will convince the religious extremists on the Arab side to lay down their arms.

I’m not going to try and explain the Palestinians interpretation of the Koran.
Religion is quite a thing when it’s taken word for word…

If we really get into the religious aspects of this conflict you have to look for some answers in the Old Testament as well, that “Old Book” that declares that the Jews are the so-called “Chosen People” (which means I’m chosen for something, I’m just not sure what?!).

We can get into quotes about - “This is the land of which I swore to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob…” (The three Jewish fathers)

"On that day, God made a covenant with Abraham, saying: "To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt as far as the great river the Euphrates. The land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites; the Chitties, Perizzites, Refaim; the Emorites, Canaanites, Girga(*)(*)(*)(*)es and Yevusites." (Genesis 15:18-21)

**** The (*) stuff appears because of the 'S' word...

****

There are of course many more biblical passages, not to mention the glorification of Joshua who led the Jewish people (after Moses) in conquering the “Promised Land” one city after another. I can go on and on with these examples only to come to the conclusion that God is not a real-estate broker, and if he were he lied to one of his two most important clients.

Even so, the religious aspects to this conflict are real, and it’s a shame that both sides use these types of quotes to justify their actions. As a side note, I’m reminding myself of an interesting CNN special that I saw called “God’s Warriors”. Three episodes were produced, one for Islam, one for Judaism, and one for Christianity (if you can find it, it’s worth the watch).

And enough of all of that and back to the present for a moment, let’s get back to the radicalization issue. There’s no doubt in my mind that many Jewish Israelis feel hate towards the Palestinians, I mean that’s the premise to pretty much all of my points. If the Jewish Israelis hate the Palestinians and the Palestinians hate thy neighbours as well, what we have on our hands is a bunch of radicalized extremists who truly believe that the “Holy Land” is rightfully theirs and they are willing to kill and die for it.

And yet there is another big issue that we haven’t discussed yet, it’s a demographic issue on the Israeli side. The orthodox Jews are growing in numbers, they are currently about 30% of the Israeli population, and as they (for religious reasons) culturally have many more children than your average moderate family (sometimes 10-15), in time they will gain more and more political power and influence, which means that there is a window of opportunity that is slowly fading away.

In addition to the aforementioned issues, there is the undisputable fact that the Palestinian people are living under conditions that create an environment that is ripe for radicalization. With that said, it would seem that the cycle won’t be broken anytime soon, and that matters will only deteriorate as time goes by.

We agree on many things, and I know and except what you’re saying, I just think that it’s important to view the picture in its entirety and not just the opening credits (or the frame, whichever metaphor works better for you).
Not too long ago I was unwilling to accept the Israeli governments’ accountability in this conflict, I can honestly say that I’ve studied and learned a lot since then.

Peace.

concheet · #32 (**permalink**) 02-11-2008, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziggy

I lived in Israel in the 90’s, back when the Oslo accords were being negotiated. I’m telling you first handed that there were protest rallies happening on a regular basis that were anti-peace.

I do not accept that they were "anti-peace." That is a biased characterisation. They were for peace-for-peace. Did you listen carefully to Meir Kahane? He was not against peace. He was for it. But of course, not at any price. The dead are peaceful, too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziggy

I’ll say this again, there is no Palestinian negotiator for peace at this point in time, I’m not saying that the Palestinians are for peace and the Israelis aren’t, I’m saying they both aren’t. The Palestinians didn’t agree to the terms that were given to them for reasons that we can debate over but regardless of that, there was such a huge opposition to the terms that were offered back then from people on the Israeli side that it ended with the Israeli Prime minister being assassinated.

There was no peace partner at that time either. Arafat was a corrupt old man who spoke one language to his people and another to the rest of the world. The Oslo Accords turned into the Oslo War. The so-called Peace Process was an illusion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziggy

You can believe that the Israeli government wants “Peace”, and that the Israeli people want “Peace”, but you first have to ask yourself what exactly “Peace” is. It’s very easy to say you want something without getting into the fine print.

Now that is something I agree with and brought up myself in an earlier post. You can substitute "Palestinian" for "Israeli" in that paragraph and ditto.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziggy

With that said if you want to know why I say that a majority of Israelis are against a “Real Peace” process (beyond the political map and demographic reality), the same Netanyahu is currently leading in the election polls in Israel. Do you think he suddenly changed his anti-peace rally ways?

Again your characterisation of Netanyahu as "anti-peace" shows that the very issue of "peace" has not been defined. I believe, as do many Israelis, that Netanyahu is very much in favor of peace.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziggy

I’m sorry for him and his family, what do you want me to say?
You don’t see me waving pictures of dead Palestinian children to discuss the issue, not to mention how your sarcasm about this poor boys future “Partying” is oh so benign.

It was you who brought up how Tel-Aviv is the major big-party town and Sderot is just a dinky little town with a few people and how only 7 Israelis have been killed..... and at the same time claiming that the Palestinians have suffered so much that their behaviors against Israel is warranted and can be 'excused' while at the same time demanding that Israel do nothing to defend herself, not even build a wall. lol

I don't want you to say anything. I certainly don't expect you to pretend to sympathies you don't have. However, you don't minimize the suffering of one group of people and maximize the suffering of another if you aspire to be fair.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziggy

It’s easy for you to say that we’re all responsible for our actions as you live in a small town next to the Mexican border (population under 20,000 if I remember correctly).

I hold everyone responsible for his own actions. That's a fundamental tenet of civil and human rights. I don't throw my neighbor in jail for something that someone else did. I believe that there is such a thing as 'good' Muslims, can you believe it? And I believe that people raised in the most impoverished way, even so poor that they eat dirt, can be "good" people. It has nothing to do with what size town I live in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziggy

You can read all the anti-Islamic articles you want and personally believe (for whatever reasons) that all “Arabs are backwards”. That doesn’t change the fact that there are 1.5 Billion Muslims in the world and pretty much all of them live in better conditions than the 3.5 Million Palestinians.

1) I don't believe that "all" Arabs are backwards. Indeed, there are many billion Muslims that live better than the Palestinians. Too bad they don't put their heads and hearts and finances together to solve this problem. Because they could.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziggy

You can feel whatever it is that you do about the way Islamic women are treated, but that’s a cultural issue that has been a way of life for them for over 1,000 years (long before American football ever existed).

I don't remember bringing up Islamic women and football, but now you have let me state for the record that I don't think that any person should be treated like an inferior because of his race, color, or gender. Every human being has the right to fulfill his potential, and not be a slave to another.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziggy

For some odd reason, you feel so strongly about an 8 year old Jewish boy who was decapitated because of terrorism (the Islamic Jihad is a terrorist organization), yet you don’t care about terrorism in Iraq that is directed at Muslims, you just wave it off by saying things like “Bad things happen in war” and other such rhetoric.

He wasn't decapitated in this case. He "just" lost his leg. I take it you have never been a parent. An 8 year old child losing his leg is a tragedy. Of course he is only a Jewish boy....

Please demonstrate where I have "waved off" the terrorism in Iraq that is directed at Muslims? I am in fact sympathetic to the Muslim victims of terrorism as I am of the Muslims of Afghanistan, both of which are victims of the same kind of terrorism that the Israelis are. I was in favor of both wars to liberate those people from tyranny.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziggy

You think that 3.5 Million Palestinians should be treated like “An animal” as if the animal that they are, each one individually, isn’t a human being (and then say that I’m dehumanizing them).

huh? where did I demonstrate that? I said each one is responsible for his own actions. Animals are not "responsible" for their own actions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziggy

You think it’s alright to collectively punish 3.5 Million Palestinians because members of their community break international laws, yet you dismiss the lawbreaking actions that are committed by American troops in Iraq and call the offenders “A few rotten apples”. The Israeli governments building of the separation wall (as an example) is a blatant international crime against humanity, yet for some reason it doesn’t bother you at all.

I love the way you put words in my mouth and claim I think this and think that. We are talking in this thread of Israel and the Palestinians, not Americans in Iraq.... to my mind quite a different situation ... not analogous at all. Apples and oranges at best. I don't agree that the separation wall is a crime against humanity. I think it was built to prevent crimes against humanity. The Palestinians are not good neighbors. Israel is doing the most humanitarian thing possible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziggy

In your opinion, the Israelis deserve a life of luxury and the Palestinians deserve zilch, as you say, they’re just “Backwards Arabs”.

You are making things up here Ziggy. I have never said nor implied that anyone deserves a "life of luxury" and anyone else deserves "zilch." I have said live and let live, and let the Palestinians take what they have and make good use of it - and leave the Israelis alone.
Matthew 25:14-30 speaks to this point for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziggy

I’m not your old friend Ashley. I’m not going to bombard you with numbers as a rebuttal to your narrow-mindedness. That was Ashley’s problem as well, observing only one side’s problematic behaviour disorder while completely disregarding the others. I’m not one to cry “Political Correctness” out loud, but to be frank your prejudice towards Islam, Muslims, Arabs and Palestinians is quite revolting.

Ah yes!... my old friend Ashley... lol.

My 'narrow-mindedness'? I have told you that you have misinterpreted my positions and (I believe) the positions of millions of (right-wing, non-dovish) Israelis. (Not to mention that you have said nothing at all about the sizable element of quite dovish Israelis)

Yet you insist you know my mind and that it is narrow. You yourself said these things could not be discussed without a clear understanding of what "peace" means, yet you moved on without even trying to define it, and accuse others of being against it!

You are a fine one to talk about prejudice, when you are comfortable with the Islamic treatment of woman because it's a "cultural issue that has been a way of life for them for over 1,000 years" Just because you have been a slave for 1000 years doesn't make it right. And it is never right to target innocent children.

concheet · #33 (**permalink**) 02-11-2008, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobcat1

Thanks for your response, ziggy. It is well-written and well thought out.

We've been discussing the radicalization of Palestinians. After forty years of non-stop Palestinian violence, I think one can speak to the radicalization of the average Israeli, too. To me, this explains the present stance of the Israeli hard-liners you describe. They are fed up with Muslim intransigance. The second layer of your pyramid was "security." There is no question the average Israeli has been deprived of his sense of security.

In my opinion, on the Palestinian, - indeed, on the Arab - side things are different. While segments of their population indeed have been radicalized, that does not explain the hate that is spewed in Egypt and Saudi Arabia and other Arab states. What does explain it is the Muslim view of their place in the world, i.e. their understanding of their religion, and the destiny of Islam as it interacts with non-Muslim nations and peoples.

The Koran makes it very clear that Allah is the owner of all infidel lands:

"Allah gradually reduces the land controlled by the unbelievers..." 21.44

"Allah grabs the land of the unbelievers…" 28:58

"Allah promises believers His sovereignty on earth. He will establish the authority of His chosen religion (Islam)…" 24:55

These lines from the Koran all imply military victory by usurping infidel territory. It implies that Muslims are the legitimate heirs of all the land on the earth. This alone, in my opinion, explains 80 years of Arab and Palestinian intolerance. Historically, Israel has offered peace. Perhaps the present day political situation in Israel is not so inclined to pacifism. I will accept your interpretation of public opinion in Israel. Even so, the fact is that the Muslim states are the real stumbling block, for, while it is possible to reason with Israel's hawks, if their security can be gauranteed, nothing you say will convince the religious extremists on the Arab side to lay down their arms.

Good post, Bobcat1. I was not aware of those particular quotes from the Koran. They certainly make your point.

halla · #34 (**permalink**) 02-11-2008, 07:32 PM

Quote:

I’m not going to try and explain the Palestinians interpretation of the Koran.

then left hamas do it for you: "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it"

Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/hamas.htm

ziggy · #35 (**permalink**) 02-12-2008, 05:08 PM

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