http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html

"One of the most common statements from the "Religious Right" is that they want this country to "return to the Christian principles on which it was founded". However, a little research into American history will show that this statement is a lie. The men responsible for building the foundation of the United States had little use for Christianity, and many were strongly opposed to it. They were men of The Enlightenment, not men of Christianity. They were Deists who did not believe the bible was true."

We can all google my good fellow! A deist, like myself, believes a higher intelligence is responsible for all this, but not in one particular intelligence. The typical deist abhors organized religion, which is why I find it hard to believe that America was a theocracy in it's younger years, and even if there were inklings of one, the most brilliant men in this country modeled their government of the philosophies and politics of none other than yours turly, Voltaire! (among others).

Here is a good opinion essay mentioning that fact

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/...in671823.shtml

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I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.

Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.

There are some that only employ words for the purpose of disguising their thoughts.

FYI - I never said Iran participated in any of that

Besdies saying this is a battle of country is useless, this is a battle of ideology, and the majority of people buying into the nonsense are from the surrounding areas of the middle east, and much of the terrorism around the world is sponsored by Iran.

Don't get me wrong, the US has done plenty to spin the wheel of conflict in it's day, but none of this was to spread some backwater ideology of how the world should be according to God, it's more of a misguided attempt at making everyone just like "that shining city on a hill" Reagan preached about.

I try my best to open minded with each individual because it is very important to seperate the man from his state. You may be Arab/Islamic, and I will gladly listen to you and would love to hear more about your experience in that area of the worl, but the fact remains the ideology of Islam that seeps into politics in the middle east is a rampant problem around the worlld and is doing nothing but harm to both your country and the rest of the world.

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I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.

Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.

There are some that only employ words for the purpose of disguising their thoughts.

Thanks for the links. We all know most of the founders were deists, however some were not. I'm not going to break out books for this unless you want a debate about who was religious and who claimed to be deists.

What I did say, however, was "America began as a theocratic state" which is true.

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"Gimme some truth, now whose side are we on? Whatever you say, turn on the boob tube I'm in the mood to obey" Jack Johnson

I'll pass, but I will take future threads of yours into serious consideration.

__________________
I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.

Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.

There are some that only employ words for the purpose of disguising their thoughts.

Why, do you not believe me? Apart from the Virginia colony, which also had religious tendencies in their government, the early colonies were created with rules of/by 'God'.

Maybe we're thinking here of something like the Roman church. This is one type of theocracy, but not exactly what I was referring to:

1) a form of government in which God or a deity is recognized as the supreme civil ruler, the God's or deity's laws being interpreted by the ecclesiastical authorities.

This is blatantly evident in the early colonies, or what I was referring to when I posted "America began".

__________________
"Gimme some truth, now whose side are we on? Whatever you say, turn on the boob tube I'm in the mood to obey" Jack Johnson

No, it's not that, but I have heard numerous arguments for both sides, my purpose on this board is to stir thought, not change opinion.

Your information sounds accurate enough.

__________________
I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.

Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.

There are some that only employ words for the purpose of disguising their thoughts.

While I will agree with you, the founders did an excellent job leaving their beliefs by the wayside; it is also important to know early colonial - especially religious colonial - governments did not harbor the kind, generous leadership made out in many history books. This, the behavior of Puritans, was one of the motivating factors for the founders to drop clauses of religious intent.

From your link:
"...Adams opined that if they were not restrained by legal measures, Puritans -- the fundamentalists of their day -- would "whip and crop, and pillory and roast." "

(lol...I think we've derailed the thread just a bit)

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"Gimme some truth, now whose side are we on? Whatever you say, turn on the boob tube I'm in the mood to obey" Jack Johnson

This sounds very plausible, as Puritans seemed like quite the intolerant type, almost enemies of freedom when unchecked.

__________________
I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.

Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.

There are some that only employ words for the purpose of disguising their thoughts.

I'm Iranian/Muslim. I born in north of Iran that people genetically are more influenced by Russian than Arabs.

firstly, you cannot wipe Islam out of middle east. why?

1) Islam is not an ideology to its people, it's a religion.
2) Islam has deep cultural roots, at least in Iran.
3) Islam has specific rules for a government.

secondly, Islam is not what you see,

1) All you saw and heard was about radical muslims doing some terrorist job. considering the fact that Shia prohibited assassination, those who are doing these are almost Suni. those terrorists are not muslims, they are those who fought with Imam Ali (PBUH) and didn't recognized him as a muslim! they're told Khavarej, means "Outers"

2) you think Islamic rules are unfair, but believe me, they're not. we hadn't even one cutting stuff this year. why? because islam sets many impediments in the way of it. besides, those crimes that you believe they aren't crimes, like being gay are culturally denied here by people. you can't see even one gay here. those people can change their sexuality, but can't live being a man and being a gay. their ow fathers will kill 'em. about sex outside marriage, all you have to do before it, is reading a two line sentence and set an agreement before sex. that's what islam says. then you'll have to worry no one because your married for a specific amount of time that you set with the girl. is it unfair?

3) you must live with a muslim to see how he treats you, how he lives himself and how friendly he is. try to find a muslim friend. well, I'm in tehran whenever you want!

so the islam is not harming any one. bad people are anywhere, not only in middle east. the whole problem is you're fighting with our bad people. you don't know them. then you think everybody are like them. then conflicts will happen. the fact that US wants to control the oil market is undeniable. setting a radical jewish state in the whole muslim area was a bad idea. these are why you see so much conflicts and problems here.

I believe you can understand me. I know you are open-minded people that are seeing through a window your mass media opened to you, but the facts, in fact, are different here. believe me, we all are not bad.

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I crave therefore I am and that is all I ever feel
I hoped you'd understand, One love, One pain, One enemy
I toast to misery, as I dig into the devil's bone
And for eternity the pain became me
Unholy me alone...

Iranians are not of Arab ethnicity. This is a common misconception of the west. Iranians are for the most part, Persian.

I lean towards believing that the Iranian people are typically a lot like Americans in that they're intelligent, highly sophisticated, and capable of being reasonable who are friendly and open towards ideas of democracy. I don't think all Iranians are exemplified by the rhetoric spewed by their leadership which waxes of contempt for "the Great Satan."

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"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left."
Ecclesiastes 10:2 (NIV)