Do you make this request of everyone in here?

Or do you just expect even handedness and presenting the other side for specific issues?

Why would anyone in here take that approach if you didnt do it as well?

The amount of attacks on Islam and mulsims as well as Palestinians in here is overwelming.

When there is a small proportion of criticism for the other side YOU REQUEST SOME SORT OF MORAL PESPECTIVE AND LINICAL FAIRNESS.

I suppose you have to defend the immorality and criminal behaviour of your country in some way.

It must be difficult for Americans to sleep at night nowadays knwing that their social infrastructure is very fragile and ill equiped to handle the upcomming turmoil and collapse.

It must be diffcult looking into the mirror catz.

But I understand - I have great faith in the American people rekindling their dream ideologies and hopes and aspirations. Its a pity that your governments foreign policy agenda continues to spread state sponsored terrorism around the globe.

Ans when I say GOVERNMENT I mean in the sense of what JOHN DEWEY thought of governments (ie "that governments are the shadows cast by big business upon society")

katz,
as i see it, some israelis and their sympathizers, will call anyone who dares criticize the actions of the israeli regime anti-semetic because they have no other "defense" of those criticisms. it is not unlike blacks, whose behavior is rightfully criticized, calling out those who condemn the condemnable actions as "racists" because they have no other defense for those inappropriate actions

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“Mayor Palin fails to have a firm grasp of something very simple: the truth.”

[Frontiersman editorial, 2/7/97]

Am I mistaken? Is the premise of this argument that the Israeli violence is ok and the Palestinian violence is not? Are we discussing 'moral relativism'?

I thought I'd better ask--considering I am a 'jihadi poster'.

Violence is violence.

Terrorism and opposition to terrorism? Is this the topic? I dont' want to presume its about Palestinians are the baddies or the Israelo's are the baddies.

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"To be a warrior is to learn to be genuine in every moment of your life" ~Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche~

You're trying to play a numbers game again, but here is the problem with your argument:

#1 those incidents I posted were just the first few I found on a quick search. It took me about 5 minutes to compile, and I thought it sufficient to make a point about the absurdity of trying to take high moral ground vis-a-vis whose civilians are most innocent. In fact that search was just for "girl shot". I didn't have the time or inclination to labour the point by posting thousands of incidents over a 10-15 year period.


#2 You're trying to show us how people are blinded into having sympathy for Palestinians based on their numbers killed, when the fact is the numbers mean nothing to me. The reason I argue for Palestinians is conditional and specific. I detest their conditions and I see that those conditions are counter-productive to an actual peace solution. You can't press a people that hard and not expect them to react. That's why there was a warsaw uprising. The germans took their perceived enemy and boxed them into ghettos, restricted everything they did, where they went. It always comes down to the same thing; people, when pressed react badly. All people.
That policy has failed Israel for 40 years, and I'm at a loss to understand why a nation of smart people continue to just repeat the same failed policy of just squeezing harder, controlling more, dividing more.

I can understand the wall to some extent, in that it worked to physically stop people committing bombings, but it is just a wall, not a way to reconcile for your children and grandchildren. That terror didn't come from nowhere. It wasn't formed in a vacuum. Israel has done some immense wrongs to palestinians, and those examples I gave are just the tip of the iceberg. Those kids are all mourned by their families, like any family would. People do crazy stuff when their 9year old sister is gunned down at school by a sniper. You would do crazy stuff, I would. That's the human condition.

You're trying to get people to see the Israeli side as right and just. I argue that there is no right or just way to hem 2 million people into barbed wire and stone enclaves, take way their freedom of movement, flatten their houses, rip up their centries old olive groves, furthur divide the enclaves, cut power, cut water, cut fuel, close the airports, the sea ports, drive tanks in the streets.
And after all this, Palestinians are used as a cheap labour market for Israel. Cheap because all the above has created 80% unemployment.

If Israel was smart, they'd be making palestinians fat, rich and happy. Herodotus once said that hard places make for tough fighters. Right now Palestine should be made soft and rich.

Excuse me if I abbreviate your post but I think I've gotten the essence with the above portion.

What was so Disingenuous of you though was to Quote just the very beginning of My last and say I was playing the numbers game!
And Not quote the 'Meat'/Bulk/crushing essence of my post showing the Difference in the operations and Goverments of the two peoples.

it was YOU who was playing the 'numbers game' with your 8-kid-kill-for-effect list and ME showing the Policy difference and sadly, even the difference in the peoples and their intent.

It was I who pointed out the QUALITATIVE NOT QUANTATIVE difference.
You know .. the part you did NOT quote.
choosing instead to respond only to the first few lines. Shame.

This remain untouched as it is so poignant:

Again; Hardly a "Numbers game" you falsely charge.
That was NO "numbers game".
That was an illustration of the differences in intents, the Targets, and Humanity of the two sides that You said were 'mirror images'... that I showed were NOT.

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There is no question that there is something deeply wrong with the Palestinian psychology which allows for the celebration of acts of wanton violence against civilians, although it needs to be pointed out that though this attitude is present, it is not prevalent.

I think the point here, though, is that it is the military's responsibility not to kill civilians as part of their operations. Even one person killed who was not involved in the fighting is a failure on the part of the IDF. What compounds this is the consistent pattern of brutality and abuses engaged in by individual groups of Israeli soldiers, and the relative blind eye IDF commanders show with regards to these atrocities. We should not be trying to compare who is more morally reprobate. That will not provide us with a consistent or relevant guide to action.

There are more Palestinian civilians in suffering and abject conditions than Israeli civilians. This is a fact. Your earlier post implied that Palestinian civilians in suffering have somehow relinquished their rights to fair and just treatment by virtue of their ethnic or religious association with armed groups such as Hamas. This is not a given in traditional statist politics, and it is even less convincing in the fragmented political climate of the Palestinian territories.

The resolution that needs to be found is one that synthesises the two aggrieved communities and finds a way to stop the suffering in a holistic way. It is not right to apportion blame as a means of determining an appropriate ratio of sympathy.

Welcome, and thanks for your sincere reply.

However, despite some acknowledgemnet on your part of the problem.. I disgaree with the way you wander into Moral Equivalence.

One side, and it's elected leadership, targets Civilians intentionally. Unlike many/any other 'resistances' that target Military or at least infrastructure. The celebrations a 'natural' outcome of this policy/motive.

While the other, Israel, chooses Military targets and, due to the nature of the War the Palestinians have chosen to fight, necessarily hits civilians in the course of preventive, defensive, or retaliatory strikes. Tha alternative, again, to Israel's strikes is to do nothing while Rockets fall and bombers infiltrate.

Your equivalence also seeks to marginalize the Palestinian psychology to a few- when it is in fact widespread.
Especially in Gaza, it's arguably more a Cult than a Cult-ure.
Palestinian Children (in the WB too) are taught at home, school, camps, and TV to hate Jews and wipe out Israel.. while many Israeli children even learn islam.

For further reading on this Culture I suggest the Short but Incisive and literate:
(May make a string of the below)

Where Hatred Trumps Bread
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editor...l?id=110003690

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I don't disagree with you. And yet, there are others here who see the Jooz behind every government, whose posts echo "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion."

There is a difference, wouldn't you agree, between those who criticize the actions of the Israeli government, and those who espouse a belief in ZOG as a shadow entity controlling every nation?

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Catz Meow
Badly behaved.
Hedonistic Lemming.

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JW Frogen, my new favorite noob poster:

If you are such a weak jellyfish you can be bullied on a forum where you can ignore any poster you do not want to read than I suggest you move to Tibet, convert to Buddhism, protest the Chinese occupation, be killed as you will by the Chinese and hope you come back with some form of backbone.

beleserti continues propaganda campaign against muslims and in particular against Palestinian civilians who have been under occupation for 40 years.

One must ponder what motivates beleserti's EDIT TO REMOVE INSULT support of a NON-democratic Israeli regime.\

Although ONE does not need to venture very far in order to answer this question.\

DOES ONE beleserti?

beleserti, there is a difference between defending one's country from terrorist attacks and pursuing a policy of oppression, pacification and retaliation on a population as a whole. The reprisals which the IDF carries out very often target not military targets, but the communities that produced those targets, as seen in the infamous policy of bulldozing homes. This cannot in good conscience be considered self-defence, and if it is intended as such, it is deeply misguided.

The steps Israel has taken in Hebron to lock down individual neighbourhoods and prevent mobility between neighbourhood is a security policy of sorts. But it is one that is highly damaging to the civilian population's quality of life, and it is not clear at all that it is stemming the flow of terrorist attacks in the area. If anything it seems motivated by the aggressive lobbying of the extreme religious in Israel, who want to settle Hebron completely.