Who should have Nuclear weapons - Page 21

White Fox · #**201** (**permalink**) 06-03-2008, 10:10 AM

[quote=TheSocialHandGrenade;544494]

Quote:

Originally Posted by peaceful warrior

O.K so if I understand your argument, America had no idea what would happen when they dropped the bomb?

Please. . . . Ever heard of the Manhattan project, they new exactly what would happen they tested it first. However the first time they tested it, they weren’t 100% sure it wouldn’t set alight the troposphere, that’s quite irresponsible really.

SALT was more about curbing the escalating costs of the cold war, rather than “making sure it never happens again” hence the word limitation.

why then after the war did America develop the fusion bomb? Much more powerful than the fission one dropped! and continue to develop yields and multiple re-entry vehicles etc. It was American scientists who gave nuclear secrets to the USSR in order to maintain parity so they'd never be used.

Who currently does this? Iran doesn’t have them. N Korea either. India or Pakistan hasn’t threatened the world to my knowledge? Maybe here in the U.K?

Does Nagasaki, the Cuban Missile crisis and the star wars debacle class as regular?

America = Option B

Don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with use of the bomb on Nagasaki, but the idea that these weapons should be limited to the U.S is frankly scary.

Factual clarifications for this thread:

American scientists had tested a nuclear device and knew a probable casualty estimate before they dropped the bomb.
Government estimates also figured that the bomb saved both Japanese lives, Japanese civilian lives, and American lives.
North Korea does have nuclear weapons.
Soviet agents stole American nuclear secrets, we did not give them away.
The fusion bomb was developed to send a message to the Soviets.
SALT's intended purpose was to ease the growing threat of complete nuclear holocaust.

-

TheSocialHandGrenade · #**202** (**permalink**) 06-03-2008, 10:55 AM

[quote=White Fox;544528]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSocialHandGrenade

Factual clarifications for this thread:

American scientists had tested a nuclear device and knew a probable casualty estimate before they dropped the bomb.
Government estimates also figured that the bomb saved both Japanese lives, Japanese civilian lives, and American lives.
North Korea does have nuclear weapons.
Soviet agents stole American nuclear secrets, we did not give them away.
The fusion bomb was developed to send a message to the Soviets.
SALT's intended purpose was to ease the growing threat of complete nuclear holocaust.

-

Factual clarifications for this thread:

Quote:

American scientists had tested a nuclear device and knew a probable casualty estimate before they dropped the bomb.

That's exactly what I said, thanks for proving my point

Quote:

Government estimates also figured that the bomb saved both Japanese lives, Japanese civilian lives, and American lives.

I said I didn't have an issue with Nagasaki, did you read it?

Quote:

North Korea does have nuclear weapons.

Your Government does not classify N Korea as a Nuclear State. It tested one and it was a failure, with a blast of less than a Kilaton

Quote:

Soviet agents stole American nuclear secrets, we did not give them away.

Soviets did steel also, it wasn't Government policy for scientists to give secrets away, it was a matter of personal conscience and it happened.

Quote:

The fusion bomb was developed to send a message to the Soviets.

Thank you again for proving my point!

Quote:

SALT's intended purpose was to ease the growing threat of complete nuclear holocaust.

SALT had no bearing on this as the U.S & USSR already had and still do have enough nukes for a holocaust several times over

The space race and cold war an economical nightmare, and utimatley crippled the Russian economy.

peaceful warrior · #**203** (**permalink**) 06-03-2008, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makedde

If someone drops a bomb on you, you can drop a bomb on them.

Ok. one problem though, if someone drops a nuke on you... YOU DIE! So, a retaliation policy in a nuclear war is ill-advised. Thats why, although you always try to avoid conflict, pre-emptive strike is so necessary nowadays.

peaceful warrior · #**204** (**permalink**) 06-04-2008, 06:42 AM

[quote=White Fox;544528]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSocialHandGrenade

Factual clarifications for this thread:

American scientists had tested a nuclear device and knew a probable casualty estimate before they dropped the bomb.
Government estimates also figured that the bomb saved both Japanese lives, Japanese civilian lives, and American lives.
North Korea does have nuclear weapons.
Soviet agents stole American nuclear secrets, we did not give them away.
The fusion bomb was developed to send a message to the Soviets.
SALT's intended purpose was to ease the growing threat of complete nuclear holocaust.

-

i agree with you. so seriously, STOP misquoting me!

C-D-P · #**205** (**permalink**) 06-09-2008, 03:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSocialHandGrenade

Your Government does not classify N Korea as a Nuclear State. It tested one and it was a failure, with a blast of less than a Kilaton

Really?

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/index.html

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/dprk/nuke.htm

TheSocialHandGrenade · #**206** (**permalink**) 06-11-2008, 11:39 AM

Globalsecurity.org is a joke of a website

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/as...est/index.html

And this is a Congressional report, which says they can only base there intelligence on supposition, apart from the dud of course.

http://italy.usembassy.gov/pdf/other/RS21391.pdf

Irish.Cursory · #**207** (**permalink**) 06-11-2008, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C-D-P

Really?

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/index.html

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/dprk/nuke.htm

What's a kilaton? Does its explosion shower us with more unwatchable reality TV? Maybe "Hello Kitty" will steal my socks and make my morning commute unreasonable by 5 minutes.

C-D-P · #**208** (**permalink**) 06-12-2008, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSocialHandGrenade

Globalsecurity.org is a joke of a website

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/as...est/index.html

And this is a Congressional report, which says they can only base there intelligence on supposition, apart from the dud of course.

http://italy.usembassy.gov/pdf/other/RS21391.pdf

And both of your sources are dated.

TheSocialHandGrenade · #**209** (**permalink**) 06-13-2008, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C-D-P

And both of your sources are dated.

Not really, both these are post weapons test, and from reasonable sources, unlike yours, but here you go. Since the test. . ..what's been going on?

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/2792.htm

Quote:

The Six-Party Talks resumed in December 2006 after a 13-month hiatus. Following a bilateral meeting between the United States and D.P.R.K. in Berlin in January 2007, another round of Six-Party Talks was held in February 2007. On February 13, 2007, the parties reached an agreement on "Initial Actions for the Implementation of the Joint Statement" in which North Korea agreed to shut down and seal its Yongbyon nuclear facility, including the reprocessing facility and to invite back IAEA personnel to conduct all necessary monitoring and verification of these actions as agreed between the IAEA and the D.P.R.K. The other five parties agreed to provide emergency energy assistance to North Korea in the amount of 50,000 tons of heavy fuel oil (HFO) in the initial phase and the equivalent of 950,000 tons of HFO in the next phase of North Korea's denuclearization. The six parties also established five working groups to form specific plans for implementing the Joint Statement in the following areas: denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula, normalization of D.P.R.K.-U.S. relations, normalization of D.P.R.K.-Japan relations, economic and energy cooperation, and a Northeast Asia peace and security mechanism. All parties agreed that the working groups would meet within 30 days of the agreement, which they did. The agreement also envisions the directly-related parties negotiating a permanent peace regime on the Korean Peninsula at an appropriate separate forum. As part of the initial actions, North Korea invited IAEA Director General ElBaradei to Pyongyang in early March for preliminary discussions on the return of the IAEA to the D.P.R.K.

The sixth round of Six-Party Talks took place on March 19-23, 2007. The parties reported on the first meetings of the five working groups. At the invitation of the D.P.R.K., Assistant Secretary of State Christopher Hill visited Pyongyang in June 2007 as part of ongoing consultations with the six parties on implementation of the Initial Actions agreement. In July 2007, the D.P.R.K. shut down the Yongbyon nuclear facility, as well as an uncompleted reactor at Taechon, and IAEA personnel returned to the D.P.R.K. to monitor and verify the shut-down and to seal the facility. Concurrently, the R.O.K., China, United States, and Russia initiated deliveries of approximately 50,000 metric tons of HFO per month, with the R.O.K. completing delivery of the first tranche of 50,000 metric tons in August, China the second in September, the United States the third in November, and Russia the fourth in January. These four parties are expected to continue to provide monthly shipments of HFO as the D.P.R.K. continues to implement denuclearization steps. All five working groups met in August and September to discuss detailed plans for implementation of the next phase of the Initial Actions agreement, and the D.P.R.K. invited a team of experts from the United States, China, and Russia to visit the Yongbyon nuclear facility in September 2007 to discuss specific steps that could be taken to disable the facility. The subsequent September 27-30 Six-Party plenary meeting resulted in the October 3, 2007 agreement on "Second-Phase Actions for the Implementation of the Joint Statement."

Under the terms of the October 3 agreement, the D.P.R.K. agreed to disable all existing nuclear facilities subject to abandonment under the September 2005 Joint Statement and the February 13 agreement. The Parties agreed to complete by December 31, 2007 a set of disablement actions for the three core facilities at Yongbyon -- the 5-MW(e) Experimental Reactor, the Radiochemical Laboratory (Reprocessing Plant), and the Fresh Fuel Fabrication Plant -- with oversight from a team of U.S. experts, The D.P.R.K. also agreed to provide a complete and correct declaration of all its nuclear programs in accordance with the February 13 agreement by December 31, 2007 and reaffirmed its commitment not to transfer nuclear materials, technology, or know-how.

In November 2007, the D.P.R.K. began to disable the three core facilities at Yongbyon and complete most of the agreed disablement actions by the end of the year. Due to health and safety concerns, disablement activities at the 5-MW(e) reactor continued beyond December 31, 2007. Assistant Secretary of State Christopher Hill visited Pyongyang again in December 2007 as part of ongoing consultations on the implementation of Second-Phase actions and carried with him a letter from the President of the United States to Kim Jong-il. The D.P.R.K. missed the December 31 deadline to provide a complete and correct declaration, but efforts to secure a declaration continued into January 2008.