My son, Mark, got a speeding ticket. Small town with no revenue other than out of town drivers. It's had a reputation ever since I was in college. We literally went by a different route. I figure they realize that most people simply cannot to take time off work to fight it and pay it even if they're innocent. My son has time, and I have time to be with him for moral support.

For the sake of discussion, you'll have to take my word for it that my son was not going 57 in a 35 mile zone as the ticket read. He said he actually realized that he needed to watch his speed. No one can be going that far over the speed limit without being very aware of it. He could have paid the ticket or got deferred adjudication himself and I would never have known.

The scenario is a country road coming toward the main intersection in town - a light that you rarely hit on green and must expect to stop. Distances are approximate since I measured using the odometer on the truck. At 9/10s of a mile from the intersection is a speed limit sign saying 55. At 7/10s the speed limit changes to 45 (at this point, my son said he took his foot off the gas as he neared the sign so he admits he was probably going a few miles over here at the time he passed the sign, but not for long after). Another 45 mph sign 3/10s of a mile from the intersection. At 2/10s of a mile the speed changes to 30mph. There is a slight downgrade but not such that it makes it hard to slow down. Mark said he was braking hard by the time he got to the second 45 mph sign as he could see the 30 mph sign coming up and expected to stop at the intersection anyway. The cop was at a restaurant parking lot just the other side of the 30 mph sign.

Now you're thinking I got something wrong. Nope. There is no 35 mph zone. The only 35 mph zone is about half a mile after the point at which Mark was pulled over. Mark told the cop that, but the cop pointed to the 30 mph sign behind them and said it was 35. We went back and took pictures. I figure it's possible that Mark was going 57 at the first 45 mph sign (far from the one the cop pointed to). OR, he could have been going 37 when he passed the 30 mph sign though he said he doubts it because there were cars stopped at the light.

I've found something called "Fatal variance doctrine". This stands for the proposition that a variance between the indictment and the evidence at trial may be fatal to a conviction because due process guarantees the defendant notice of the charges against him. A mistake in spelling the name or the color of the car would not be fatal because the defendant should not be confused by those things and knows what the charge is.

I'd really appreciate some input from y'all about my story and any stories of your own you'd like to share.

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Order without liberty and liberty without order are equally destructive. - Theodore Roosevelt

My experience has always been that it's completely pointless to ever fight this kind of fine, because you never win and you end up with further court costs on top of the original fine.

However, if you feel that your son has been wronged and he really has a good case against it, then why not? If you stay reasonable and have good evidence (which is the most important thing) then you should encourage him to stand up for himself.

It just really all comes down to what the cops and the court are like in your town. In Australia traffic cops are called `Jury f***ckers' because everyone has had a bad experience with them, and so if they ever have to give evidence then the jury automatically disregards whatever they say.

Traffic cops are notorious megalomaniacs with connections to boot. If you think your son has a good shot, I say go for it. If you think it's just not worth it, then it probably isn't.

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We've got rules and maps and guns in our backs, but we still can't just behave ourselves. Even if to save our own lives, we are a brutal kind. The Shins

isn't this a capital crime in texas, subject to the death penalty?
tell Mark to kiss it goodbye.

assemble your evidence ... photos, charts, vascar calibration data (to see if the officer's vascar unit had been properly calibrated). create a time line of events ... primarily so that Mark will be consistent in his story (not that he would deviate as to the facts but that the presentation would be consistent). when you are there with him make sure you are dressed as an attorney would be. have Mark address you while there in the same way he would an attorney (Ms. 12thman). my experience was for the DA to approach me as my son's presumed lawyer and we cut a reduced plea (no points - no insurance hike). once he realized i was "dad" there were NO more concessions made. if nothing else works rely on the truth and hope you get an open minded judge. suspect it will be unneeded but coach your son how to always act respectfully in court .... refer to the judge as 'your honor', etc. that, plus conservative/respectful attire will add to his credibility when he explains his side of the story.
recognize the judge could be part of the system that knows it must generate revenue in this way as there are no other sources of community income. the truth may not win out.

here are some hints for the following site:
1) Dissect Your Traffic Stop
When you are initially stopped for a traffic violation do not argue your case at the roadside. Do be pleasant and courteous. Do not admit to ANY violation of the law. Let the police officer tell you what you did wrong, don't volunteer your opinions on the subject. Before you drive away, gather as much information as you can about the circumstances of the encounter and write it down.

2) Decide On Your Plea
While it may be tempting to just pay the ticket and forget about it, you will almost always be better off if you plead "not guilty”. Pleading "no contest" or "guilty with an explanation" will just result in the judge finding you guilty. Don't waste your time. When the district attorney finds out you're serious about fighting this traffic ticket, he will be much more inclined to offer you an attractive plea bargain.

3) Research The Law
In most instances, the ticket you received will contain a specific reference to the statute or ordinance, by number, that you allegedly violated. You can find the exact law or ordinance online, or in person at the city hall or a public library.

Read this material very carefully, including references to other laws and court cases. Is this law really the reason you were stopped and cited? Or, is the law referenced on your citation for some other violation and is in fact in error? Were your actions really in violation of this law?

A failure on the part of the prosecution to charge you with the actual violation described by the law will result in the dismissal of charges.

4) Research Enforcement Technology
Police across the country use different tools to enforce speed limits. The most common enforcement tools are radar, laser, VASCAR, and pacing. Find out what technology the officer used (it should be printed on your ticket) and learn as much as you can about how it works. NMA members have access to operator manuals and experts on the subjects of radar, laser, and VASCAR.

5) Gather Information
You'll need information to win. There are both formal and informal methods for gathering information. They include requests or motions for discovery; open records or public records requests; interrogatories; depositions; as well as subpoenas. Do not rely on courthouse personnel to help you, they are typically as unhelpful as possible. Their standard line is "we do not provide legal advice."

Discovery Request
This is an information request you would make to the prosecutor, usually the District Attorney, for information related to your case. Some states mandate that certain kinds of information must be released to a traffic ticket defendant. Other states specifically relieve the prosecution from any responsibility to fulfill a discovery request.

If your state mandates that certain items be given to you and they aren't, or the court orders that certain items be given to you and they aren't, you can ask for a motion to dismiss for failure to provide discovery. The motion will be granted or the court will order the prosecution to provide the requested information.

Public Records Request
Public records laws are called different names in different states, but their intent is to make public records available to all citizens. Public Records Requests are independent of the court and your trial, and the failure of an agency to provide requested records will not automatically result in a dismissal of charges. NMA members can obtain a sample Public Records Request form online instantly.

6) Learn Court Procedures
Learn the basic procedures for presenting your case in court. The police officer will testify first, and any other witnesses the prosecution has will follow. You can cross-examine the police officer and any other witnesses against you. You need to know if your violation is considered criminal or civil, because court procedures are different for each situation. Attending an earlier court session is an excellent way to get a feeling for how the court conducts traffic ticket trials.

7) Consider A Continuance
There are many good reasons to request a continuance (an extension of your trial date):

It allows more time for the police or the court to respond to your information requests.
It gives you more time to do the research you need to prepare your defense.
It decreases the chances of the officer being available to testify against you.
It decreases the chances of the officer remembering specifics about your traffic stop, which increases your chances of winning.
You may request a continuance for any of several reasons. Work conflicts, school schedules, health problems, vacations, and the need for more preparation time are all acceptable reasons for requesting your court date be extended.

Prepare Your Defense
This is where you take all the information you've gathered and choose the defense strategy that has the best chance at getting your ticket thrown out.

The prosecution must prove three elements.

Your vehicle was at the scene of the alleged violation.
You were operating the vehicle.
That while operating your vehicle, you violated a specific law.
In most instances the first two elements are readily proven. However, in many cases the failure of the prosecution to prove one of these first two elements has resulted in the dismissal of a traffic ticket. For example, the vehicle may have been misidentified. Perhaps the arresting officer lost site of the offender's car between when he clocked the vehicle's speed and when he finally stopped the vehicle. Of course, if the prosecution fails to have a first-hand witness that could testify to seeing the vehicle, witnessing the violation and identifying you as the driver, the case will be dismissed, IF YOU MAKE A MOTION FOR DISMISSAL.

This is most commonly exemplified by those situations where the police officer doesn't show up for the trial. If one police officer identified your vehicle and observed the violation and another officer pursued you and issued you a citation, both officers would be required to be at your trial.

9) Pre-Trial Conference
The pre-trial conference may be a separate event on a separate date from your arraignment date (the date on your ticket is usually your arraignment date). But more often the pre-trial conference or negotiations will take place at the time of your arraignment.

Depending on the formality of the court; the judge, or the prosecutor, or possibly even the arresting officer, will encourage you to plead “guilty” or “no contest” to avoid the time and expense of a trial. In return they will typically offer a reduced fine and or reduced points for your violation. At that point it’s up to you to weigh your chances at trial versus accepting the lesser penalties offered by the prosecution.

10) The Trial Process
Typically, the officer will be the only witness against you. When you are done cross-examining him it will be your turn to present your side of the story, your defense. If you had a passenger in the car at the time of your apprehension and that passenger will confirm your description of events, have her there to testify on your behalf. A letter or signed affidavit will not be accepted as evidence. The real person has to be there, just like the police officer has to be there, to make themselves available for questioning by the opposing party.

If your violation was a civil infraction the judge can compel you to testify, although that seldom happens. If your violation was a criminal offense you cannot be compelled to testify, but you can testify if you choose to do so. If you completely and convincingly dismantle the arresting officer’s claims and it seems the court agrees, there is no reason to testify.

http://www.motorists.org/fightticket...icket-fighter/

good luck, but be prepared to give him the "justice is blind and deaf" talk if justice is blind and deaf that day. it can be a demoralizing experience for a young adult to see first-hand that the system isn't always "fair"

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Bushfan http://www.politicalforum.com/images...s/viewpost.gif Pelosi calls Mr. Bush a Failure in Eeverything. You just can't hide a public eduation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusticus Rove is s the slime on which this whole administration slid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raharu Haruha And spending money is nothing more than another form of voting.

what usually happens is the cop shows up (or a representative) and you sit with a judge and the judge says "how about $50 instead?" Most people say ok to the reduced amount. But feel free to say if I didn't speed why should I pay anything? If that's the case. But if your son doesn't know his speed he won't have any evidence and is better taking the reduced fine.

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JMS gets another English lesson:

Quote:

there is no "mostly unique;" thats like saying "sometimes always," its an oxymoron - its either one or the other.

The result:

Quote:

By the mid-19th century unique had developed a wider meaning, “not typical, unusual,” and it is in this wider sense that it is compared. The comparison of so-called absolutes in senses that are not absolute is standard in all varieties of speech and writing.

Great stuff Bubba!

Mark was told to see the prosecutor tomorrow. This is a hearing. I don't know if the judge would be there or if this is simply where Mark would plead.

I've been Googling and reading a lot. First, I have to ask to see the complaint. If the cop realized his mistake and corrected the speed limit on the complaint, it should be automatically dismissed as long as I point out the discrepancy (fatal variance). If the cop actually went so far as to say that Mark was going the other way and was in a 35 MPH zone, we have little proof against his lie except that Mark's friends parents may remember when he left their house.

Basically, I have to be ready for several different things. If they were to offer us a plea with no points or insurance hike, I'm cutting our losses right there. I realize the whole thing is a bluff. I kinda think that if they think we are holding some cards, we'll be better off. Just showing up with my folder full of stuff may help us.

I have pictures of the road signs with landmarks. I am gonna print a Google map both plain and satelite with arrows marking the signs, where the cop was and where Mark was pulled over.

My insurance just went down! 22 miles over the speed limit, and I'd be toast! If the cop had just been honest in the first place, I'd have Mark do the Defensive driving thing and get it over with.

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Order without liberty and liberty without order are equally destructive. - Theodore Roosevelt

Best case scenario? The cop doesn't show. On the rest Rebellion was dead on. The laser gun, assuming it was calibrated right (and it likely was) got him going 57. That's it! Over. The odds of you winning are slim at best. They will offer a deal for a reduced fine and maybe no points or whatever. Take it and go home.

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Where are we going? And why am I in this handbasket?

what stick-em said ... just be ready if they are inflexible.
not sure how the testimony of when he left would convince the judge his speed was less than the cop indicated ...

whatever happens do get him in driving school ... anyone who has a teen driver. protect them from more than a speeding ticket!

here is where my kids went and i think there are similar locations nationwide
http://www.charlottemotorspeedway.co...riving_school/

good luck

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Bushfan http://www.politicalforum.com/images...s/viewpost.gif Pelosi calls Mr. Bush a Failure in Eeverything. You just can't hide a public eduation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusticus Rove is s the slime on which this whole administration slid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raharu Haruha And spending money is nothing more than another form of voting.

But stekim, WHERE was Mark speeding? See my point? It's like getting a ticket for failing to stop at a stop sign, but it was a yield sign instead.

I have a friend who is a judge here. He doesn't know how they do things up there or if that judge is corrupt. He advised pleading not guilty and going with a jury trial.

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Order without liberty and liberty without order are equally destructive. - Theodore Roosevelt

No. That would only help show which way Mark was going in case the cop lied about that. Not very useful, I agree.

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Order without liberty and liberty without order are equally destructive. - Theodore Roosevelt

I expect to be given an opportunity for lesser fine. As long as it's not going to hurt us other than a few bucks, I'm willing to take it. I expect them to try to intimidate us as much as they can exactly like a poker game. Each of us trying to decide if the cards we are holding will win and worth the trouble.

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Order without liberty and liberty without order are equally destructive. - Theodore Roosevelt