I do not have to agree with your conclusions to enjoy the exchange and I leave my mind open enough to be swayed by a strong presentation of the facts.

Seriously. Lets have some fun and talk about this in detail. All I ask is that we each leave our fangs at the door and allow the other to hold their views without passing judgement. I promise I will do my best to participate in an honest exchange if you will do the same.

Also, if you are interests, then lets start another thread to talk about this since we are getting into a focused discussion.

I'm sorry that you interpreted my identification of a particular argument as being of a certain religion as "bringing in fangs", but I assure you I had no fangs walking into this thread to begin with.

I have already begun a couple of threads in the History section, one of which crosses over the one discussed here--one on the Islamic Empire. I have another one debunking common historical myths, based on original documentation instead of a bibliography (patent microfiche and labels, etc.) so how 'bout let's move upstairs to the History department.

Deal?

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Here's an idea, Dan--there's already a crossover to this topic in progress definitely in the Islamic Empire thread in History because the thing that kicked that one off was a previous discussion of the Alexandria Libarary, how that came to meet its destruction.

The topic crosses over to the Roman Empire at the point Julius Caesar burned some of it then restored what he burnt.

http://www.politicalforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=2684

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You've dropped by the History section but you haven't discussed much of this detail you said would be so much fun. You want maybe a separate thread on the Roman Empire? If so, why did you just pass thru without starting one?

Just what exactly are you wanting here and why didn't you start whatever it is that you were wanting here? How 'bout YOU start a thread--I'll take you up on this either way.

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Ok, while I'm waiting for you to do something in the History department, I'll just pick up where we left off here...

I thought I essentially said as much. Constantius Chlorus was Constantine's dad. There was an assertion that the Praetorian Guard wasn't a factor when it was, and a big one. There was an assertion that Diocletian moved the government east, before Constantine did, and that was wrong--there were 4 capitals--2 east, 2 west, with C. Chlorus over the Gaul/Britain quadrant. Constantine himself was scarecely up and running as much of anything at the time, and I do believe that's what I said, too.
After his father's death is the key here. Ya got a little ahead of the story, ya did. Constantine wasn't appointed to squat until well into the year 306. Just the year prior, Diocletian pressured Maximian to abdicate his Augustus status and C. Chlorus was Maximian's boy. Diocletion promoted both Galarius and C. Chlorus to Augustus-hood, and one Severus rose to C. Chlorus' place as Caesar but without Chlorus's consent, piffing off the Brits bigtime, as they'd become fond of him. They took it upon themselves to proclaim Constantine instead to that post. Not strong enough to resist, Galerius reluctantly OK'ed the move.
It is on Roman record that Diocletian was a Praetorian Prefect before he became emperor. Constantius Chlorus was a general. Clear now?
Your argument on this point splits hairs--the Guard was part and parcel of the army.
He was afraid of the army and their Praetorian arm (Diocletian' scheme was to create 4 capitals instead of maintaining one, and none of those were in Rome--and a significant part of his reforms was the reduction in number of the Praetorian Guard, with the aim of eliminating it altogether. This is the part he didn't succeed in completing but Constantine subsequently did)...and he was afraid of the army-controlled Senate, also HQ'ed in Rome. That org became a municipal council because it was given no transfer to any one of the 4 capitals).
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Ummm, I don't understand your request for my bibliography when I've already provided a link to one I've posted elsewhere. Just click on that link and you'll see it. I've tried to google up those two authors you mention and I'm not coming up with anything by both of them. You didn't provide any titles, either. Please do, thanks.

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I was able to google up just John Julius Lord Norwich but precious little else. Indeed, agree to resolve that the Christian soldier part of this discussion be tabled until I can complete my research on his sources.

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Discovered a couple of tidbits worth noting, regarding who might have been Christian in the Empire...I've located a list of the "Ten Great Persecutions" beginning with Nero and ending with....!!!

Diocletian.

But there were other non-Great persecutions since...I show a Valerian Edict, as late as 257, ordering further persecution of Christians. It's hard to imagine that these persecutions, Great and small, were even executable without significant army loyalty.

There's much made of Constantine's Edict of Milan, but that one had a Christian-tolerant predecessor: an edict issued by Galerius, don't have a formal title for that one. Year 311. Milan was 313. I have here that by the time Constantine defeated Licinius at Adrianople, the citizenry was 50% Christian.

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