Your politisizing the Iraqi dead and wounded as if it is our fault "not the enemys". YOU CANNOT BLAME OUR TROOPS FOR THE ACTIONS OF OUR ENEMYS! YOU SHOULDENT BE ASHAMED OF YOUR COUNTRY BECAUSE OF THE CASUALTYS! YOU SHOULD BE ANGRY THAT WE HAVENT KILLED MORE OF OUR ENEMYS! Its funny that you and our enemys both want the same thing! A premature pullout of American Forces! I dont care how many friends that you have or how much time you served! The fact is this! 90% of our armed forces back our mission in Iraq and 4/5ths of them will vote for McCain! Especially in combat MOS's "which are few in the navy".

And that link read ""Iraqis Endure Worse Conditions Than Under Saddam, UN Survey Finds""

Yet at the end of 2007 here is what were are dealing with!

Despite terrorist attacks and sabotage Iraq’s economy has grown much faster than post war Germany and Japan.

1) The Iraqi unemployment rate is at 25-40%. That’s down from 50-60% back in 2003.
2) The electricity production level is 15% above pre war levels and the goal set by the US for average electricity generated has been reached years ago.
3) 8,997,000 more people have phone service than before the war.
4) Before the war there were no commercial TV stations, no commercial radio stations, and no independent news papers or magazines. Now there are 54 commercial TV stations 114 commercial radio stations and, 268 independent newspapers and magazines.
5) There are 5.7% more children in elementary school since pre war levels and there is an 27% increase of children in middle/high schools since before the war.
6) People with access to potable water before the war was 12.9 million but now 9.7 million with an 4.2 million increase since the war started. 6.2 million people had sewage before the war as opposed to the 5.6 million that have it now. However the CPA’s goal was 2.5 million.
7) Iraq has managed to make 21 billion dollars in Oil revenues despite the insurgent sabotages and the number will only rise each year.
Iraq’s GDP has more than doubled its growth since prewar levels making Iraq the fastest growing economy in the world.


The who killed all thoes people that you politisized so well? WHO??!! WHO DO YOU BLAME FOR THE DEATHS OF ALL THOES PEOPLE!!?? IS SURE AS HELL DONT BLAME OUR MILITARY! OUR MILITARY DOESENT DECAPITATE INFANT CHILDREN, THEY DONT TORTURE PEOPLE, THEY DONT HIDE BEHIND INNOCENT CIVILIANS, THEY DONT BLOW UP IED'S IN CROWDED MARKETPLACES! So the question remains! Who do you blame for all thoes Iraqi dead. wounded, and fleeing that you politisize so well for an anti war agenda?

Would have, should have, could have. The fact is this. Bush had the support of congress, the UN, and the international community! But thats over now! Is there a peaceful way to end this? ABSOLUTLY! Do you know what that peaceful way is? STOP FIRING AT US FORCES! If they cant do that then stand by to stand by!

Yes, yes yes Im led by political and high ranking war mongrels, LOL. Do you remember who all voted in congress to invade Iraq? I do! And they didnt have anything to do with the Bush Administration or Oil! You should read these quotes that date back to the late 1990's. Before you click on the voting record displayed at that same site ofcourse! After you read it all you can drop this "we could have prevented this stuff" later!

http://www.freedomagenda.com/iraq/wmd_quotes.html

The 11 UN resolutions that Saddam broke alone were enough to boot him out! However it took a lack of cooperation with wepons inspectors as agreed to in the 1991 case fire to finaly go to war with him and we took our time on that as well. Could this have been avoided? Absolutly! Saddam could have cooperated! But he didnt! We held up our end of the bargan! He didnt hold his according to the 1991 case fire agreement! We had every right to be there! He had no right not to cooperate!

You dont believe he was exagerating on that? We are allready moving our troops out now! Units that will never return to Iraq! Its called a responsible widthdraw and a victory! Not an immediate premature widthdraw and a defeat! I trust Gen Petraeus's descision and it is up to him to remove the troops! Our president has given him that authority!

I like the fact tha after all the stuff I said you only touched upon a few of them! Youve politisized pictures of troops doing horrible things, you politisized our dead and wounded and the Iraqi dead and wounded, yet YOU DONT BLAME THE ENEMY ONCE!!!? WOW! SIMPLY WOW!!

LOL i guess he didnt like my comment.

I have never blamed our troops, have I? When our government becomes our enemy in foreign affairs to the point of blatant avoidance, this is where I protest the action. I've politicized jack here. I've shown the result of reaction our government has created. The action of our government was force against Iraq, therefore, the result of that action is not political, it is merely the result of action. Had the action been that of economic overthrow of the dictator, I would be posting economic stats instead.

Do you know why this is? Do you think it was because of our war? Think again, it was because we are sinking billions, if not trillions into the infrastructure. The money used on the campaign could have instead been siphoned into democratic opposition and the funds then transferred to infrastructure projects when those parties took hold.

I blame bombs, you know what bombs are, right? Assuming you do, our navy and pilots are indirectly responsible for many of those innocent lives, as well as terrorist attacks.

There would be no one attacking our forces had we not entered to begin with.

I believe the highest would be the commander in chief, among others...

Says who? Says the UN? The UN said to start the war? Our congress gave Bush the go-ahead to fight a war against terrorism after a war against a regime had been won, under the same ensign of the original legislation?

Anyone who says we have lost is ignorant. We have certainly won the war, we won four years ago. I do believe our military's involvement will be indefinite.

What enemy? The enemy of THIS WAR was defeated in two thousand and three. It is two thousand eight now. The only 'enemy' left are belligerent terrorists who don't comply with the status quo. There is no basis for a full scale involvement against this type of enemy, it will always be present in the region. Always. All the troops of the entire earth, protecting each citizen of Iraq, will not quell this type of suicidal enemy, everyone knows this. A full scale war with refractory independents is insane. Look at every guerilla war of antiquity. In other words, the 'surge' was only to increase security for our economic interests and is made altruistic from our direct involvement with the Iraqi people. When the surge is gone, security forces trained in Iraq should be strong enough to protect those economic interests. Do you think terrorists will drop their involvement, simply because the US is gone? I have a modest answer for this, HELL NO.

I haven't posted pictures of 'terrorists' because our enemy, which congress and the Bush administration so clearly stated in their declaration, was Saddam and his army. The continuation of this occupation is not to defeat any enemy, the enemy has long passed. The continuation is to create an infrastructure able to support democratic parties in order to bring peace to the country. All this could have been done using less money, with direct economic involvement; and NO American deaths. That is the reason I am so adamant about the issue. No one will be able to understand this without seeing the 'other side' of the war. AMERICANS DIED BECAUSE OF WEAK FOREIGN POLICIES. And yes, the external use of force represents an internal weakness. Whatever that weakness is, the state department, the security of America, the security of economy, whatever the reason; America declared this war based on anemic foreign diplomatic relations and fearful participation of her own constituency.

__________________
"Fools rush in where angels fear to tread." - Alexander Pope

Then who is at fault with all thoes people you claimed that have been killed in Iraq? WHO IS AT FAULT!!! HUH? ANSWER THAT GENIOUS! AND IF YOUR NOT GOING TO BLAME OUR TROOPS THEN BLAME OUR ENEMIES! AND IF OUR ENEMIES ARE SO CAPEABLE OF COMMITTING SUCH HORENDOUS ACTS THEN SHOULDENT WE BE FIGHTING THEM? GET A CLUE!

DONT FORGET TO ANSWER MY QUESTION! WHO IS PHYSICALLY AT FAULT FOR ALL THOES DEATHS THAT YOU POLITISIZE SO WELL!?

YOUR SAYING THAT ALL THE SUCESS WHAT WE SEE IN IRAQ IS BAD BECAUSE WE SPENT ALOT OF MONEY? YOU REALLY WANT US TO FAIL THERE DONT YOU. AND IRAQS GDP HAS NO CONNECTION TO AMERICAN MONEY! WE LIFTED THE FREAKIN SANCTIONS AFTER WE INVADED SO THEY COULD TRADE! BUT ONCE AGAIN YOUR TRING TO DRAW A NEGATIVE FROM A POSITIVE. IF IT WERE UP TO YOU THE PLACE WOULD BE OVERRUN BY THE MUJ AND AL-QUIEDA!

REALLY? WHO CALLS IN THOES BOMBS? THE TROOPS DO! THEY CALL IN FOR CLOSE AIR SUPPORT! SO WHO DO YOU BLAME HUH?!! THOES SAME BOMBS THAT WE WERENT ALLOWED TO CALL IN WHEN I WANS IN AR RAMADI BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF "COLLATERAL DAMAGE". A STRATEGY THAT COST AMERICAN LIVES BUT ALSO A STRATEGY THAT PEOPLE LIKE YOU SEEM TO APPROVE OF! SO I GUESS THAT YOU BLAME THE BOMBS NOT THE PEOPLE WHO CALL THEM IN? TELL ME SOMETHING! HOW MANY BOMBS HAVE BEEN DROPPED ON IRAQ IN THE PAST 2 YEARS? HOW MANY BOMBS HAVE BEEN DROPPED ON CITIES THAT ARENT OVERWHELMINGLY RAN BY INSURGENTS? YOUR EXTREAMLY SHALLOW FOR BLAMING OUR TROOPS FOR THE ACTIONS OF THE TERRORISTS! IVE NEVER SEEN A US BOMB DECAPATATE A WHOLE FAMILY! IVE NEVER SEEN AN US BOMB BLOW UP AT A JOB FAIR OR ELECTION CENTER! IVE NEVER SEEN AN US BOMB BLOW UP IN A CROWDED MARKET PLACE! IVE NEVER SEEN A US BOMB KIDNAP A WHOLE IRAQI FAMILY. IVE NEVER SEEN AN US BOMB BLOW UP NEXT TO A COALITION VEHICLE THAT DID NOTHING BUT INJURE ALL THE IRAQIS THAT WERE NEAR IT! YES DUMMY! YOU WANT TO BLAME THE BOMBS THAT OUR TROOPS CALL IN TO SAVE LIVES NOT THE IED'S, VBIED'S, SUCIDE BOMBERS, OR OUR ENEMIE WHO OBVOUSLY MURDERS THE INNOCENT TO GAIN INFLUENCE. WHAT A FREAKIN RETARD!!!

SO YOUR SAYING THAT THEY HAVE A RIGHT TO ATTACK US BECAUSE WE INVADED??!! IS THAT IT!! YOU SYMPOTHISE WITH THE INSURGENTS DO YA!!?? WHY SHOULD THEY ATTACK AMERICANS?? THERE IS NO REASON!! WE ARE BRINGING THEM DEMOCRACY AND INVESTING IN THERE ECONOMY. JUST LIKE MOST IRAQIS WANT IN IRAQ! YET ONCE AGAIN YOU BLAME BUSH AND THE TROOPS FOR THE ACTIONS OF OUR ENEMIES WHO HAVE NO REASON TO ATTACK US AT ALL! UNLESS YOU ARE SAYING THAT WERE JUST A BUNCH OF TORTURING, RAPEING, MURDERERS, WHO ARE OPPRESSING THE IRAQI PEOPLE WITH NO REGUARD TO HUMAN LIFE? IS THAT WHAT YOUR SAYING? ELTS STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR OUR ENEMIES!

oh great! Thats just great. Now Ive got you down forn the "itas all Bush's Fault mentality and you reply by saying "well... its mostly Bush's fault"" ?? WOW! Please. If you want to feel three inches tall make sure you click on this video.

Are you saying that Saddam broke no UN resolutions? Read the 1991 case fire agreement! It spell it all out for Saddam. DISARM AND SHOW US THAT YOUR DISARMING AND YOU WILL BE LEFT ALONE! IF NOT YOU WILL BE INVADED! DO I NEED TO SPELL IT OUT FOR YOU? THE UN DIDNT STOP US FROM INVADING! MOST COUNTRYS BACKED US!

McCain was talking about a military base or perhaps overwatch! AND I AGREE WITH HIM! We are allready bringing the troops home!

Its called training the Iraqi Army to take our place! Do you not understand this mentality? Have you served with these guys? In some cities we have allready turned full cities over to them and we have moved in to an overwatch position! As soon as the Iraqi Army is at full strengh and training they will take our place! Have you not heard of this concept? Our job is to hold Iraq untill Iraq can SUCCESSFULLY deal with the terrorist themselves. Pulling out irresponsive not only undermines the Iraqi people but it also undermines our national security!

BUSH BUSH BUSH! You can blame Bush all you want but no one in the world in his position would have done a better job! No war has gone as planned and we have less US casualtys in this war than any other long scale war in history! You can complain about polocys all you like but you wont find any politition that would have done a better job!

I have already answered these in the previous post. I feel no need to repeat it when you miscalculate my answer. You only want an argument, not to see other perspectives.

How are thousands dead a positive? This is my argument. Do you approve of the lives lost in Iraq? That should be the question here. And yes, the success is from $$$$$$, and troops securing it.

It seems those who use the words 'retard' the most, well, I'll let others decide. And again, it is our fault, everyone involved, from calling the bomb to its release, if it kills innocent civilians. Otherwise, who would you say perpetrated it? The terrorists?

Okay, let us look at both sides here. If religious fundamentalists in the US were attacked by, say, an Islamic nation. They would revolt, maybe more than others, who knows? It has nothing to do with the regime, or the powers that be. It is simply retaliation on an influx in their lives, their land. I don't approve of them, I don't sympathize, but I can at least open my mind enough to realize how and why they are doing these things. If we never find the fundamental problem, there is no logical reprisal except 'blow them up'. This just makes them angrier and inflames the situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toby oh

I like this point you make. Bush is our commander in chief. Meaning, all actions of our militaristic involvement lead ultimately to him. Other generals and officers also have approved of the war, which is what I was referring to here. Two generalizations on your part (I'll leave out your thinking I was a civilian from earlier) - first, you claim I said 'it's all Bush's fault' and changed to 'it's mostly Bush's fault'. Secondly, I am not a democrat.

I never said this. Maybe the problem between us is you like to generalize and stereotype. A typical American way to live, don't worry. I hope you can understand the anger in my first rebuttal as you accused me of being a disgrace to my country. This has worn off now, and I wish to continue this in a civilized manner.

This is not relevant to the main argument, let us leave it to another thread.

When did I say we should immediately pull out? I think we have another problem here. The problem again, is you associate me with liberal pacifists. I simply advocate better solutions to problems, without people dying. If it takes me posting what I have for people to realize this, so be it.

I do agree, I would not want any other commander in chief for the security of our nation. I would, however, like a more reasonable commander in chief fighting a war. One who recognizes the importance of limited involvement during a time of new world order. One who holds the 'imperial presidency' post under thorough check by congress and strives for the position to be as such.

__________________
"Fools rush in where angels fear to tread." - Alexander Pope

Bombs? Yeeaaahhh.
Its not! But Ridding thoes who are making thoes thousands of innocent people dead IS GOOD!
So our troops are at fault for the hundreds of thousands of iraqis that are dead not our enemies? I guess you would have had to been there to see the truth. Rarely are we allowed to drop bombs anywhere!
Myth: America’s presence in Iraq has led to 130,000-600,000 innocent civilian deaths.

This is a dangerously misleading statement. This argument is made by people who want to blame our military for the actions of our enemy’s in an effort to advocate withdraw from Iraq. It’s not our troops that are killing the civilians. It’s the insurgents. In an attempt to sway the Iraqi people away from democracy the enemy intimidates them by murdering the families of those who work for the democracy. If you’re an Iraqi police man/ Soldier/ Politician, there is a good chance that you will come home to find your family beheaded in your own house. This is how terror works. This is the only way the enemy can win this war.

I cant tell you how many Iraqi Governors, Asst Governors, Policemen, Soldiers, Senators, and their family’s have been kidnapped or executed due to there association with their new democracy. But there is one message that has been made clear to the Iraqis. That message is that if you advocate democracy the insurgents will kill you and if they can’t get to you they will kill your family! They sway the votes of politicians by kidnapping their families and threatening to kill them, they blow up IED’s in crowded market places or voting areas, they stuff the dead bodies of children with explosives in an effort to destroy Americans, and they steal money from Iraqi businesses to fund their death machine.

Our troops aren’t murderers. Our Troops aren’t torturing people. They immunize the Iraqi families, they play with the Iraqi children, they drink chai “Black Tea” and smoke cigarettes with Iraqi men, and they weep over fallen Iraqi children! Our troops are fighting and sacrificing everything they can for someone else’s freedom simply because it’s the right thing to do and there is no greater love for humanism than that. Our troops are in no way shape or form killing innocent Iraqis on purpose. The ones that they do kill are a scratch in comparison to the ten to hundreds of thousands murdered by our enemy who is hiding behind the innocent! We should always keep in mind that letting this enemy win is not in the best interest of the Iraqi people and it isn’t in the best interest of the Iraqis!
Insurgent attacks
http://www.motherjones.com/news/feat...ttacks_big.gif
Baghdad governor assassinated
CNN.com - Baghdad governor assassinated - Jan 4, 2005
Brother of governor assassinated in Baghdad
CNN.com - Gunmen assassinate two in Baghdad - Aug 29, 2005
Iraqi Prime Minister assassination attempt
CNN.com - Ex-Iraqi leader*claims assassination attempt - Dec 4, 2005
Iraqi Cleric survives assassination attempt
Powerful Iraqi cleric survives assassination bid - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
Baghdad Governor shot dead. Zarquawi takes responsibility.
2ND LD: Baghdad governor shot dead, Zarqawi claims responsibility Asian Political News - Find Articles
Bomb kills southern Iraqi Governor
Bomb kills southern Iraqi governor - Conflict in Iraq - MSNBC.com
Bomb kills 14
Baghdad blasts kill at least 14 - Conflict in Iraq - MSNBC.com
Car bomb outside Mosque kills 7
CNN.com - Car bomb outside mosque kills seven - Jan 13, 2005
Suicide bomber kills 30 Iraqi police recruits
Bike-riding suicide bomber kills 30 Iraqi police - Yahoo! News
Gunman kidnaps 11 tribal leaders
washingtonpost.com - nation, world, technology and Washington area news and headlines
Sheiks kidnapped after reconciliation meeting
Sheiks snatched returning from reconciliation meeting - CNN.com
Gunmen kidnap 24 in Baghdad within 30 minutes
Gunmen kidnap 24 in Baghdad - Conflict in Iraq - MSNBC.com
Iraqi school built with bombs as a trap
Military: New Iraqi school had bombs built in - CNN.com
IED kills children
Iraqi bomb kills four children on the way to school | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle
Children used as bomb decoys.
Children reportedly used as bomb decoys - Conflict in Iraq - MSNBC.com
Bomb hidden in toy cart kills Iraqi children
ABC News: Iraq bomb in toy cart hits children in playground
26 Iraqis mostly children die in car bomb
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Children die in Baghdad car bomb
Bomb kills 18 women and children
Iraq bomb kills 18 women and children AFP - Find Articles
Suicide bomber kills children in school
Lorry bomb kills children in school - Times Online
Car bomb near soccer field kills 16 children and 2 women
Car Bomb Near Soccer Field Kills 16 Children, 2 Women in Ramadi - washingtonpost.com
Children killed in Iraqi bombing
BBC NEWS | Middle
East | Children killed in Iraq bombing
Decapitated bodies found in Iraq
Three decapitated bodies found in Iraq - Conflict in Iraq - MSNBC.com


Myth: The Insurgents have the right to defend against an invading Force.
This is the argument made by the most extreme liberals and leftist groups. In question format they would ask you “Wouldn’t you defend against an invading force if they invaded your home?”. This is a stupid argument because we aren’t forcing the Iraqis in to an oppressive regime or government through murder, torture, and kidnapping as our enemy’s are. Were giving them democracy! We even give first aid to our enemies after we shoot them!

If that wasn’t outrageous enough, you will also hear the Liberals say “Didn’t we do the same thing in the American revolution?”. Of course the answer is no. We didn’t murder, kidnap, and torture the innocent families of those sympathetic to the British simply because the head of the household fought or worked for the British. And we know there were plenty of them.

Here is what they need to understand. The insurgents are murdering people and their families who support the Americans and the Iraqi democracy. They are going from neighborhood to neighborhood telling people that if they side on the side of democratic freedom as opposed to Islam, they will be killed! That is the difference between us and them. We don’t rule through terror or a religious ideology that mandates that we kill infidels. And the poll below shows that the Iraqis do not want to be ruled by a religious Ideology.

[/quote]

America Voted to go to war overwhelmingly!

You said that the UN wasent supporting the US? Right? And you said that In response to my statement about saddam breaking UN resolutions which ALONE authorises war with Iraq by the 1991 case fire agreement! Says the UN!

You politisizing our dead and wounded simply to argue that you have a better way? Then you claim that we have murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis? Thats politisizing a false statement to advane your arguement and im not going to let you get away with it!

Let it be! You cant hold someone accountable when there isnt anyone elts that can do better. There has never been a war that has gone compleatly our way! Korea, We got pushed back to the DMZ, WWII the invasion of north Africa resulted in many mistakes and needless casualtys, etc etc etc. This is just one of thoes wars where we needed to learn how to fight it before we could get it right. As long as warfare and technology advances it will always be this way! Its nataral!