The phone companies should not be shielded.

The Constitution protects the citizens, and this should not be allowed.

If the feds have a reason to believe some one is communicating with terrorists, then they should have no problem getting a warrant.

__________________
For a people who are free, and who mean to remain so, a well-organized and armed militia is their best security.
Thomas Jefferson

Hey, as for the Benjamin Franklin quote, learn your history guys. He didn't say that.

I wonder why democrats love to omit those key words.

Read up ladies and gents
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin

And since privacy is never mentioned in the Constitution, I don't think it's Essential. After the events of 9/11, I don't think giving the government the ability to look into phone calls is only going to buy us a little safety.

Honestly, it seems to me that democrats just love to rag on Bush, and this is just another thing to blame him for. I dare one of you to demonstrate how this has affected your life in a negative way.

95% of debates that take place on forums, are based around opinion.

Not fact. But you copped out on this debate. Fine with me.

So I should only care about things that directly effect me? Interesting.

Forget where the country goes. Forget principle. Forget morality. Forget ethics. Forget it all right?

Your own link says it was Franklin's original thought most certainly. I don't care who said it anyways. It is just a true statement.

The Constitution is not a suicide pact

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Con...a_suicide_pact
"The Constitution is not a suicide pact" is a rhetorical phrase in American political and legal discourse. The phrase expresses the belief that constitutional restrictions on governmental power must give way to urgent practical needs. It is most often attributed to Abraham Lincoln, as a response to charges that he was violating the United States Constitution by suspending habeas corpus during the American Civil War.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Con...a_suicide_pact

.................................................. .............................................


" A strict observance of the written law is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation."

--Thomas Jefferson--
.................................................. ..............................................

"The choice is not between order and liberty. It is between liberty with order and anarchy without either. There is danger that, if the court does not temper its doctrinaire logic with a little practical wisdom, it will convert the constitutional Bill of Rights into a suicide pact."

--Jackson's Terminiello Formulation--
.................................................. ...........................................

"The Constitution is silent about the permissibility of involuntary forfeiture of citizenship rights. While it confirms citizenship rights, plainly there are imperative obligations of citizenship, performance of which Congress in the exercise of its powers may constitutionally exact. One of the most important of these is to serve the country in time of war and national emergency. The powers of Congress to require military service for the common defense are broad and far-reaching, for while the Constitution protects against invasions of individual rights, it is not a suicide pact. Similarly, Congress has broad power under the Necessary and Proper Clause to enact legislation for the regulation of foreign affairs. Latitude in this area is necessary to ensure effectuation of this indispensable function of government."

--Goldberg's Kennedy Formulation--
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/script...=372&invol=144
.................................................. ..........................................

Under the United States Constitution, habeas corpus can be suspended pursuant to the constitution in cases of rebellion or invasion. See United States Constitution. The Confederacy was rebelling, thus suspension of habeas corpus was both legal and constitutional. After habeas corpus was suspended by General Winfield Scott in one theater of the Civil War in 1861, Lincoln did write that Scott "could arrest, and detain, without resort to ordinary processes and forms of law, such individuals as he might deem dangerous to public safety." After Chief Justice Roger B. Taney attacked the president for this policy, Lincoln responded in his First Message to Congress in December 1861 that an insurrection "in nearly one-third of the States had subverted the whole of the laws . . . Are all the laws, but one, to go unexecuted, and the government itself go to pieces, lest that one be violated?"



Later in the war, after some had criticized the arrest and detention of Congressman Clement Vallandigham of Ohio, Lincoln wrote to Erastus Corning in June 1862 that Vallandigham was arrested "because he was laboring, with some effect, to prevent the raising of troops, to encourage desertions from the army, and to leave the rebellion without an adequate military force to suppress it. . . . Must I shoot a simple-minded deserter, while I must not touch a hair of a wily agitator who induces him to desert?"

--Lincoln's Suspension of Habeas Corpus--
.................................................. ...................................
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LI...n=2&vote=00029
US Senators who voted YES to reauthorize the "PATRIOT ACT" - March 2, 2006:

Measure Number: H.R. 3199 (USA PATRIOT Improvement and Reauthorization Act of 2005)

Measure Title: A bill to extend and modify authorities needed to combat terrorism, and for other purposes.

Alexander, Lamar (R-TN)
Allard, Wayne (R-CO)
Allen, George (R-VA)
Baucus, Max (D-MT)
Bayh, Evan (D-IN)
Bennett, Robert (R-UT)
Biden, Joseph (D-DE)
Bond, Christopher (R-MO)
Boxer, Barbara (D-CA)
Brownback, Sam (R-KS)
Bunning, Jim (R-KY)
Burns, Conrad (R-MT)
Burr, Richard (R-NC)
Cantwell, Maria (D-WA)
Carper, Thomas (D-DE)
Chafee, Lincoln (R-RI)
Chambliss, Saxby (R-GA)
Clinton, Hillary (D-NY)
Coburn, Tom (R-OK)
Cochran, Thad (R-MS)
Coleman, Norm (R-MN)
Collins, Susan (R-ME)
Conrad, Kent (D-ND)
Cornyn, Jon (R-TX)
Craig, Larry (R-ID)
Crapo, Michael (R-ID)
Dayton, Mark (D-MN)
DeMint, Jim (R-SC)
DeWine, Mike (R-OH)
Dodd, Christopher (D-CT)
Dole, Elizabeth (R-NC)
Domenici, Pete (R-NM)
Dorgan, Byron (D-ND)
Durbin, Richard (D-IL)
Ensign, John (R-NV)
Enzi, Michael (R-WY)
Feinstein, Dianne (D-CA)
Frist, Bill (R-TN)
Graham, Lindsey (R-SC)
Grassley, Chuck (R-IA)
Gregg, Judd (R-NH)
Hagel, Chuck (R-NE)
Hatch, Orrin (R-UT)
Hutchison, Kay (R-TX)
Inhofe, James (R-OK)
Isakson, Johnny (R-GA)
Johnson, Tim (D-SD)
Kennedy, Edward (D-MA)
Kerry, John (D-MA)
Kohl, Herb (D-WI)
Kyl, Jon (R-AZ)
Landrieu, Mary (D-LA)
Lautenberg, Frank (D-NJ)
Lieberman, Joseph (D-CT)
Lincoln, Blanche (D-AR)
Lott, Trent (R-MS)
Lugar, Richard (R-IN)
Martinez, Mel (R-FL)
McCain, John (R-AZ)
McConnell, Mitch (R-KY)
Menendez, Robert (D-NJ)
Mikulski, Barbara (D-MD)
Murkowski, Lisa (R-AK)
Nelson, Ben (D-NE)
Nelson, Bill (D-FL)
Obama, Barack (D-IL)
Pryor, Mark (D-AR)
Reed, Jack (D-RI)
Reid, Harry (D-NV)
Roberts, Pat (R-KS)
Rockefeller, John (D-WV)
Salazar, Ken (D-CO)
Santorum, Rick (R-PA)
Sarbanes, Paul (D-MD)
Schumer, Charles (D-NY)
Sessions, Jeff (R-AL)
Shelby, Richard (R-AL)
Smith, Gordon (R-OR)
Snowe, Olympi (R-ME)
Specter, Arlen (R-PA)
Stabenow, Debbie (D-MI)
Stevens, Ted (R-AK)
Sununu, John (R-NH)
Talent, Jim (R-MO)
Thomas, Craig (R-WY)
Thune, John (R-SD)
Vitter, David (R-LA)
Voinovich, George (R-OH)
Warner, John (R-VA)



http://freedomagenda.com/iraq/wmd_qu...tml#Ae3muFLaOb

The public generally does not realize that not only did the communications companies willingly give up this information, it persists to this day.

The NSA doesn't monitor every call, fax, email and web browsing history per se: They record it all into databases within Super Computers, along with financial records of each person (thanks to credit/debit cards and merchant reports), library books read, and so on.

Each of us have records in these NSA databases. Our communications are scanned for keywords, speech patterns, mood, word associations and so on by AI software. Anything remotely suspicious is red-flagged and reviewed by a NSA analyst.

The entries that pass muster are not deleted, they are catalogued, saved and added to your ever growing record (including postings here). The owners of this political forum probably do not submit our personal data to the government, but the Internet Service Providers definitely do and hiding behind a moniker (like Taomon) means nothing when you log into your ISP, browse to this site and then log into your forum account.

When I researched this back in 2005, one article I read was an interview with the scientist who developed the AI software used to analyze our communications. He was proudly announcing that he was "developing a more powerful software that will supersede anything that exists and will do things most of us have never thought of."

Yes, we need to safe-guard our Constitution. That means we need to take this horrible power away from the NSA. Why would they need to house all of these records on us? Does anyone care if those records can be used against us at a later date?

Whether guilty or not, we are afforded certain liberties in the Constitution...that we are innocent until proven guilty, that we are free from illegal searches and seizures, that we will be given due process (an investigation is begun, a warrant obtained, evidence searched for and then a case presented to a court of law...not the other way around).

We must eradicate what we have allowed this administration to do and it starts by holding the companies who willfully violated our rights accountable.

__________________
Tantum religio potuit suadere malorum
(To such heights of evil are men driven by religion)

There's the matter of the 9th amendment; you know, the one that protects our unenumerated rights.

You do realize that the Constitution is not a shopping list that itemizes every single right we have? Here's what Madison had to say on the subject:

And the last clause of the 4th resolution (9th amendment) is as follows:

You'd do well to re-think your statement in light of what Madison had to say.

Parting thought: Madison was reluctant to propose a Bill of Rights, feeling it wasn't needed. Nonetheless, he did so anyway. In light of the fact that the right is always claiming that if it isn't listed, it isn't a protected right; maybe we'd have been better off in not having a Bill of Rights. Madison attempted to protect us from such thought with the 9th amendment, but it hasn't worked out. Both sides pretty much ignore it, especially the right. Too bad for us and our rights.

The Constitution is not a suicide pact

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Con...a_suicide_pact
"The Constitution is not a suicide pact" is a rhetorical phrase in American political and legal discourse. The phrase expresses the belief that constitutional restrictions on governmental power must give way to urgent practical needs. It is most often attributed to Abraham Lincoln, as a response to charges that he was violating the United States Constitution by suspending habeas corpus during the American Civil War.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Con...a_suicide_pact

.................................................. .............................................


" A strict observance of the written law is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation."

--Thomas Jefferson--
.................................................. ..............................................

"The choice is not between order and liberty. It is between liberty with order and anarchy without either. There is danger that, if the court does not temper its doctrinaire logic with a little practical wisdom, it will convert the constitutional Bill of Rights into a suicide pact."

--Jackson's Terminiello Formulation--
.................................................. ...........................................

"The Constitution is silent about the permissibility of involuntary forfeiture of citizenship rights. While it confirms citizenship rights, plainly there are imperative obligations of citizenship, performance of which Congress in the exercise of its powers may constitutionally exact. One of the most important of these is to serve the country in time of war and national emergency. The powers of Congress to require military service for the common defense are broad and far-reaching, for while the Constitution protects against invasions of individual rights, it is not a suicide pact. Similarly, Congress has broad power under the Necessary and Proper Clause to enact legislation for the regulation of foreign affairs. Latitude in this area is necessary to ensure effectuation of this indispensable function of government."

--Goldberg's Kennedy Formulation--
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/script...=372&invol=144
.................................................. ..........................................

Under the United States Constitution, habeas corpus can be suspended pursuant to the constitution in cases of rebellion or invasion. See United States Constitution. The Confederacy was rebelling, thus suspension of habeas corpus was both legal and constitutional. After habeas corpus was suspended by General Winfield Scott in one theater of the Civil War in 1861, Lincoln did write that Scott "could arrest, and detain, without resort to ordinary processes and forms of law, such individuals as he might deem dangerous to public safety." After Chief Justice Roger B. Taney attacked the president for this policy, Lincoln responded in his First Message to Congress in December 1861 that an insurrection "in nearly one-third of the States had subverted the whole of the laws . . . Are all the laws, but one, to go unexecuted, and the government itself go to pieces, lest that one be violated?"



Later in the war, after some had criticized the arrest and detention of Congressman Clement Vallandigham of Ohio, Lincoln wrote to Erastus Corning in June 1862 that Vallandigham was arrested "because he was laboring, with some effect, to prevent the raising of troops, to encourage desertions from the army, and to leave the rebellion without an adequate military force to suppress it. . . . Must I shoot a simple-minded deserter, while I must not touch a hair of a wily agitator who induces him to desert?"

--Lincoln's Suspension of Habeas Corpus--
.................................................. ...................................
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LI...n=2&vote=00029
US Senators who voted YES to reauthorize the "PATRIOT ACT" - March 2, 2006:

Measure Number: H.R. 3199 (USA PATRIOT Improvement and Reauthorization Act of 2005)

Measure Title: A bill to extend and modify authorities needed to combat terrorism, and for other purposes.

Alexander, Lamar (R-TN)
Allard, Wayne (R-CO)
Allen, George (R-VA)
Baucus, Max (D-MT)
Bayh, Evan (D-IN)
Bennett, Robert (R-UT)
Biden, Joseph (D-DE)
Bond, Christopher (R-MO)
Boxer, Barbara (D-CA)
Brownback, Sam (R-KS)
Bunning, Jim (R-KY)
Burns, Conrad (R-MT)
Burr, Richard (R-NC)
Cantwell, Maria (D-WA)
Carper, Thomas (D-DE)
Chafee, Lincoln (R-RI)
Chambliss, Saxby (R-GA)
Clinton, Hillary (D-NY)
Coburn, Tom (R-OK)
Cochran, Thad (R-MS)
Coleman, Norm (R-MN)
Collins, Susan (R-ME)
Conrad, Kent (D-ND)
Cornyn, Jon (R-TX)
Craig, Larry (R-ID)
Crapo, Michael (R-ID)
Dayton, Mark (D-MN)
DeMint, Jim (R-SC)
DeWine, Mike (R-OH)
Dodd, Christopher (D-CT)
Dole, Elizabeth (R-NC)
Domenici, Pete (R-NM)
Dorgan, Byron (D-ND)
Durbin, Richard (D-IL)
Ensign, John (R-NV)
Enzi, Michael (R-WY)
Feinstein, Dianne (D-CA)
Frist, Bill (R-TN)
Graham, Lindsey (R-SC)
Grassley, Chuck (R-IA)
Gregg, Judd (R-NH)
Hagel, Chuck (R-NE)
Hatch, Orrin (R-UT)
Hutchison, Kay (R-TX)
Inhofe, James (R-OK)
Isakson, Johnny (R-GA)
Johnson, Tim (D-SD)
Kennedy, Edward (D-MA)
Kerry, John (D-MA)
Kohl, Herb (D-WI)
Kyl, Jon (R-AZ)
Landrieu, Mary (D-LA)
Lautenberg, Frank (D-NJ)
Lieberman, Joseph (D-CT)
Lincoln, Blanche (D-AR)
Lott, Trent (R-MS)
Lugar, Richard (R-IN)
Martinez, Mel (R-FL)
McCain, John (R-AZ)
McConnell, Mitch (R-KY)
Menendez, Robert (D-NJ)
Mikulski, Barbara (D-MD)
Murkowski, Lisa (R-AK)
Nelson, Ben (D-NE)
Nelson, Bill (D-FL)
Obama, Barack (D-IL)
Pryor, Mark (D-AR)
Reed, Jack (D-RI)
Reid, Harry (D-NV)
Roberts, Pat (R-KS)
Rockefeller, John (D-WV)
Salazar, Ken (D-CO)
Santorum, Rick (R-PA)
Sarbanes, Paul (D-MD)
Schumer, Charles (D-NY)
Sessions, Jeff (R-AL)
Shelby, Richard (R-AL)
Smith, Gordon (R-OR)
Snowe, Olympi (R-ME)
Specter, Arlen (R-PA)
Stabenow, Debbie (D-MI)
Stevens, Ted (R-AK)
Sununu, John (R-NH)
Talent, Jim (R-MO)
Thomas, Craig (R-WY)
Thune, John (R-SD)
Vitter, David (R-LA)
Voinovich, George (R-OH)
Warner, John (R-VA)



http://freedomagenda.com/iraq/wmd_qu...tml#Ae3muFLaOb

.......???

A list of times that our federal goverment restricted basic rights under the bill of rights with the intention of putting the saftey of American citizens before all rights!