i think YOU are the short sighted one if you can't see the long term benefits of society driving more efficient vehicles. this program is not some deal breaker, but it is a net benefit.

what jobs are being lost/reallocated away by this? are you saying that the money the government is providing for the clunkers is money they'd be spending on creating jobs instead?

the jobs are NOT unsustainable. People have lost their jobs so those people can no longer spend money, many people who have kept their jobs are paid less or paying down other debts. this is a temporary program. Once people are back to work you will not see this program anymore.

The opposition to the program is a knee jerk reaction. ***MOD EDIT - personal attacks are not allowed on this forum*** You criticize what even works.

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What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Consumer spending is in a nose dive. It was based on debt to begin with.
The citizens cannot tolerate further debt. THe servicing costs have become to large a portion of their income. Their savings is negligible, so there is no savings from which to spend. There is no collateral to borrow against, as their homes are either underwater or out of equity. For most citizens, taking on the new debt of a shiny new car is stupid.

Hoping for the tooth fairy to revive consumer spending to the levels necessary to prop up the bank books, keeping them from insolvency, and return the economy to health is comical. These are not lay-offs. These jobs are gone.

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The most profound slavery must be that in which the slaves can conceive of no other possible or better world than their bondage.

The five largest US banks list $204 trillion it OTC derivatives products alone on their books. Mostly CDS and the much larger market of interest rate swaps. World wide, the BIS lists $591 trillion.

What was the total of mortgages that defaulted prior to the crash ?

The banking industry risk models were based on 4% growth to perpetuity.
A pyramid requires constant growth or it implodes. Constant growth equals the constant assumption of new debt. This is impossible. The servicing costs grow geometrically. The consumer cannot bear this.

There, I'm done spoon feeding you .
Put a little thought into the process and stop accepting the simplistic explanations of dumb @ssed politicians.

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The most profound slavery must be that in which the slaves can conceive of no other possible or better world than their bondage.

Of course there is a net benefit to driving more fuel efficient vehicles. What you don't see is that there is also a net penalty to charging the American taxpayers 3 Billion dollars to do it (which is really more like 6 billion dollars including the interest on the debt and maybe twice that when you figure in the drag on the economy due to inflation).


Directly you've got a huge hit on the used car industry and engine component refurbishment. In the long term it has ripple effects throughout the economy due to the drag imposed by inflation and the attendant higher interest rates.
No. I'm saying that money does not grow on trees even though the politicians have you convinced otherwise. Several dollars of future GDP have disappeared for each dollar that went to destroying perfectly serviceable cars. *That* money could have created more jobs.

The first sentence here conflicts with the last, because once this program ends, the jobs it's subsidizing will also end. Moreover, this program will continue to burden the economy long after it ceases to provide any benefit.
I urge you to come to grips with the fact that there is no such thing as a free lunch. "The government" didn't pay for this.

Uhh... no it's not. The Federal debt is currently pushing it's ceiling of 12 Trillion dollars. Geithner has just said that we will go lame duck if it is not raised once again. Our GDP isn't much higher than that, yet WE HAVE SPENT 1.2 TRILLION DOLLARS OF ADDITIONAL DEBT IN THE LAST 6 MONTHS ANYWAY.
Obama said this course is unsustainable and he's right. The CBO has said this course is unsustainable and they're right. But just in case you can't take the hint, the Chinese are bailing out of treasury bills and putting their money in TIPs.

The writing is on the wall: This deficit spending jag is coming to an end regardless of what you have to say about it. I submit that we could spend our money a little more wisely than buying up serviceable cars and destroying them.
Your insults are unnecessary.

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"Our liberties we prize and our rights we will maintain"- Iowa state motto
-Squidward
Ventura/ Paul '12

-Retro Fit

All of these government rebates to buy a product or service generate much more demand while its in operation but after it stops demand drops substantial.

After a couple years not that many more people buy a product than they would have otherwise. It just causes a brief jolt, followed by a big drop than a slow return to normal levels.

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Republicans have never met a tax cut they didn't like.
Democrats have never met a spending bill they didn't like.

What the consumer can "bear" can clearly be seen by the number of loan defaults. The fact is that people will continue to pay for thier car because they need a car. My on topic point was that it wasn't car loans that caused the problem. Are you saying that bad lending practices in the mortgage business are not part of the banking industry house of cards? If you are going to bring up the "gloom and doom" in the cash for clunker thread you need to show how it specifically is bad for the economy.


Here is a story from today's news if you want to get back on topic:


http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-...13-712491.html

oooh durn it. I was thinking of getting my mom a new car.. but her current car doesn't qualify for this C.A.R.S rebate.




anyhoo, heres a "clunkers calculator" if any of you wanna check if your ride qualifies:

http://www.toyota.com/cashforclunkers/

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The United Church of the Latter Day Tangential Tarts
"When I'm in command, every mission is a suicide mission!" -Capt. Zapp Branigan
"Did you know that Republicans are stupid and evil?" -Bill O'Reilly, Feb 2010

That's why programs with the purpose of stimulus are only good for recessions and should be stopped after the economy begins to return.
They should be recognized as helping shock us into life while the economy is dropping, then released when it starts rising.

As such, that makes this a bad time to have such a law in effect. The recession is at its end or near.

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"Conservatives say if you don't give the rich more money, they will lose their incentive to invest. As for the poor, they tell us they've lost all incentive because we've given them too much money."

-George Carlin

Sure it is. And no one has explained why stimulus is supposed to work except for the fallacious "consumption is good" assertion. It's based on the false premise that supply follows demand, and that taking savings from people (yes, redistribution of wealth) and giving it to anyone, and especially politically connected businesses, will help the economy. Cash for Clunkers a classic example of the broken window fallacy. Can you even defend the paradox of thrift, upon which your pathetic assertions are based, or will you just continue to accuse me of propagandizing against Obama? I suspect that the latter is all you've got.

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“Some writers have so confounded society with government as to leave little or no distinction between them ... [Yet s]ociety is produced by our wants, and government by our wickedness.” - Thomas Paine, Common Sense

"Bleeding head good. Healed head bad."

Do you simply make it up as you go ?

http://www.boston.com/business/perso...ssession_lane/
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119690536188815285.html
http://caps.fool.com/Blogs/ViewPost....24249416869148
http://caps.fool.com/Blogs/ViewPost....24249416869148
http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/...lts-rise_N.htm

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The most profound slavery must be that in which the slaves can conceive of no other possible or better world than their bondage.