Blatant overt racism on this forum

[Frogger]

Actually it is not spin at all, Stroll. I was called a racist by a poster in this thread. There was no couching of the term in nice language. The poster just came out and called me a racist.

[stroll]

I don't doubt that someone called you a racist, if you say so.
The thread is far to long for me to go searching, but I am quite sure this has not been said, but is your interpretation:
"It has been stated by some posters, nt all, but some, that anyone who does not agree that all pictures of a black person as an ape are racist is himself a racist."
Some, including myself have questioned the motives for denying that there is any reference to racist imageryin depicting a black person as a monkey. And with a few posters their racist attitude is revealed in their follow-up posts.

[Think Blue Count One Tow]

Originally Posted by mertex

So far, so good!

Great. Keep it up then.

[E_Pluribus_Venom]

Originally Posted by stroll

Some, including myself have questioned the motives for denying that there is any reference to racist imagery in depicting a black person as a monkey.

It's the internet, stroll. It's an avenue where people are able to actually deny such things, knowing full-well the offensive nature of the depiction when the computer is off. It's why people would never attempt such a depiction out in public.

[alskdwq]

someone say Obama as monkey, this not means he is a racist, they just speaking their view to Obama. but, make other as monkey or other clown is certainly bad. the problem is not racism, but shows a man's culture, and I can pretty sure that there is no any racism in this.

[stroll]

Which part of the world are you from, if I may ask?

[Antagony]

Wow! Ten pages of comments since I was here last night! And the acrimony that ensued following Jedi's comment... crikey, this place is taking some getting used to.

As far as the dispute between Heroclitus and Frogger is concerned, I've read and reread the posts which were apparently at the crux of it and I tend to agree with Teamosil that they are both good people who probably wouldn't have had such an angry exchange if they'd had this conversation in real life. I've known Heroclitus for a lot longer than most people here (from another, now defunct, forum) and I have to admit that I initially found the tone of his writing disconcerting. We even clashed over it on more than one occasion – if I recall correctly, I accused him of being condescending. But I am not afraid to say that I was wrong. When I got to know him better it became clear that he just has a passionate nature and an enthusiasm for tackling ideas that makes him come across that way sometimes. I now have no hesitation in saying I do not doubt his word to Frogger that there was nothing personal and no veiled insults intended in any of his posts.

@Frogger:
First of all I would like to say thank you for at least acknowledging that using the n-word is wrong. I agree, for the most part, with those who think you could have been more direct in your condemnation of jedimiller's specific admission that he wouldn't have a problem using it, and I also think it was unnecessary to append a condemnation of blacks for using it. My own feeling on that is I'm not comfortable hearing it, especially when it's used pejoratively, but if they've chosen to adopt the term for themselves, then who are we to argue? I've heard it said that there is a sense of empowerment in taking ownership of a word like that. There is a similar phenomenon amongst some gays, who address each other with the pejorative words traditionally applied to them by bigots. But putting all of that aside, you did condemn the use of the n-word and I hope you won't be offended by this, but there was a degree of doubt in my mind about whether you would. And I don't say that because I think you're a racist, but because I can't see much qualitative difference between being okay about using monkey images to depict a black person and being okay about using foul pejorative terms like n*****. Take, for example, one of the things you said about using the word:

Originally Posted by Frogger

There are certain words that cannot have any other meaning than a racist one and those words should never be used. Most of us over a certain age know all of these words because they used to be quite common.

Well some of us – in particular, some of the black participants in this discussion – think that monkey depictions of black people have exactly the same historical baggage as the n-word does. You can substitute the word 'words' with the word 'images' in that quote and you have the opposition argument in a nutshell.

Now, it was disappointing, to say the least, to see you try and divert this discussion into a disagreement between Americans and Europeans. Most Europeans wouldn't even dream of claiming superiority for Europe over the US when it comes to race issues. In fact many of us are mightily impressed that the US has gone from the days of segregation to electing a black president in such a relatively short time. And I have no qualms in saying there are still too many countries in Europe – particularly in the South and the East – where electing a black leader is impossible. Europe has its race problems, of that there is no doubt, but that's an entirely different subject to the one at hand, and it was you who raised it. What you are doing here is tantamount to saying 'this is an American issue, so only Americans should be allowed to comment on it.' Well I'm sorry, but it's not an American issue, it's a forum issue. We Europeans also have a history of using racist imagery to depict black people and are just as likely to be offended by such imagery as anyone else, regardless of the nationality of the target. And even if it were purely an American issue – not that I think there can be any such thing these days – it is not reasonable to say Europeans should look to their own problems first. This is a discussion board; we all get to freely choose what we want to discuss. If you want to discuss racism in Europe there's nothing whatsoever stopping you from starting a thread in the appropriate forum. I'm sure it would garner plenty of interest.

[frodly]

Originally Posted by alskdwq

someone say Obama as monkey, this not means he is a racist, they just speaking their view to Obama. but, make other as monkey or other clown is certainly bad. the problem is not racism, but shows a man's culture, and I can pretty sure that there is no any racism in this.

Your post is a bit hard to understand, so if I have misinterpreted what you said, I apologize. But it seems like you are saying it is not racism, it is xenophobia. And I would say that one is no better than the other.

[Gwendoline]

Originally Posted by Frogger

Gwendoline,

Go back and read all the posts. I know it would be a daunting task but if you want to comment you sholuld undertake it before posting misstatements. The first aspersions directed toward the people of a country were not directed by me. There were comments made again and again about American conservatives. If posters wish to lay some sort of special racialism on Americans they should expect to have their own nation's racialism brought up. Yes, Americans have a history they have to live down vis a vis their relations with non-whites. So do the English, the Germans and the Australians.

This thread begain with an accusation that people who used certain avatars were racist. The initial post was flawed in that it called a positive image of an African warrior racist. During the first few pages of the thread there was discussion about the issue but that discussion soon descended into accusations that those who felt not all pictures of blacks as apes or monkeys were racist were themselves racists, either overt or covert. Rather than discussing the issue of whether there could be differing opinions about the pictures all who held a different view were tarred with the brush of racism. References to Nazism were made, posters were told they were too ignorant to understand what they were saying and again and again the charge of racist was tossed around.

Some of the posts made by some posters were racist and those posts were rightly addressed as such but when the charge was extended to all who held a view different from that of the liberals it went too far.

People can disagree with each other about issues and one side is not automatically correct and the other automatically wrong.

Some people might be cowed by having the accusation of being a racist thrown at them but those of us who know we are not racist are not and we will not sit idly by and allow others to say we are without refutation.

A daunting task to read all the posts? Well, yeah. I don’t think I’m required to read EVERY post before responding, and in fact, I have been following the thread. Mine are misstatements according to you. No, I read your post where you launched that finger-pointing of the racism of the nationality of the 2 posters you were debating at the time. To what aim? It was uncalled for. Entirely out of context to the conversation at the time, and there was no provocation or attack on you (for your nationality) for you to respond that way. No one was having a go at YOU for being American that you should then imagine some “tit for tat” scenario.

This is what you said:

It is telling that while Teamosil understood that I was condemning the use of the word (*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*) and all racial epithets the two 'superior' Europeans would rather make up some crap in order to show that my condemnation of racist speech wasn't quite up to the standards of Europe. That's kind of funny coming from someone who lives on a racist island where black footballers are called monkeys and someone who comes from a country that treats Turkish Gastarbeiter as third class people even if they are the descendents of Turkish workers who have been born in Germany.

That post was utter crap from you.

Aspersions about American Conservatives on this thread? You mean like aspersions Conservatives make continually about Politically Correct “youlibs”? Get real. You say posters are laying special “racialism” on Americans? You think other nations racism should be brought up too? You mean on this thread, or another thread? The context of this thread is about the racism on this forum, and with the mention in the OP about racist avatars on this forum. And some of them are racist, along with being slimy, ignorant, and base.

What did the nationality of the posters you were debating have to do with you feeling compelled to make irrelevant, nasty comments to them? You called them “Superior” Europeans”. That’s gross on your part.

You think there should be room for “differing opinions” about racism? Like the monkey depiction pictures? NO. Some things ARE racist, and it’s not my problem if some others don’t have the grasp or the sensibilities to understand racism – and to then make a claim that they are entitled to a “differing opinion” – when it is an opinion that is racist. As far as the monkey pictures went, you were very pushy in your proclamation of them not being racist. So you don’t see what a lot of us see. Perhaps you have no wish to see. Perhaps it’s more you have a wish to be “right”. But the criteria/s and the machinations for understanding racism doesn’t work that way. The parameters of racism are quite clear for those who wish to see.

And the racists will hardly be cowed as you suggest. Some racists, no doubt, thrive on the fuel of their hatred for others. ‘Tis a Strange world, Strange forum…

[squidward]

Originally Posted by E_Pluribus_Venom

It's why people would never attempt such a depiction out in public.

good, then it's really not a problem after all.