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  #91 (permalink)  
Old 02-08-2010, 05:11 PM
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Awryly Awryly is offline
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It's time we joined the planet instead of pissing everyone off then 50 years later wonder why they're angry.
It's refreshing to hear an American state the obvious, LeoCoDem.
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  #92 (permalink)  
Old 02-09-2010, 06:24 AM
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LeonCoDem LeonCoDem is offline
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Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
I quite agree that the abolition of slavery, the success of women's suffrage, and the enactment of consumer-protection laws are "a plus for all''--and "not a loss for conservatives." But why, then, would you list these changes as a blow to conservatism?
Consumer protection is usually thought of as a restraint against business. That's usually thought of as anti-capitalism in some form. Also, any protection for workers during the 1930s was considered "red" or anti-capitalist... restricting a businessman or corporation from running their business in the free market. Again, emancipation upset the status quo of the time. It was a liberal thing to do - liberate. Having women voting upset the status quo. It was liberal to liberate women. Given that, are you against the ERA?

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Yes, there are a few kooks at both ends of the political spectrum--"wingnuts," as progressives typically label them (as if it were a problem peculiar to conservatism exclusively).
I'm a progressive and I don't call anyone wingnuts.
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If you really believe that as much as half of all American conservatives believe in the subservience of women--wow!!--I really don't know where to go from there!
I guess you took the 50% as an absolute. You'll also notice I had 20% as well. That means I had no particular number in mind. Could be 6% or 70%... get it?
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Old 02-09-2010, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by LeonCoDem View Post
Consumer protection is usually thought of as a restraint against business. That's usually thought of as anti-capitalism in some form. Also, any protection for workers during the 1930s was considered "red" or anti-capitalist... restricting a businessman or corporation from running their business in the free market.
This is not the 1930s.

And as for the part about consumer-protection laws being "usually thought of as a "restraint against business," that might apply reasonably well to establishment-type Republicans (think: George Bush 41); but it has very little bearing with many conservatives--and especially little bearing with those of us who are right-wing populists, and who therefore reject both Big Government and Big Business. (And no, I emphatically do not want to see the role of either expanded, in an attempt to act as a check on the other.)

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Originally Posted by LeonCoDem View Post
Again, emancipation upset the status quo of the time. It was a liberal thing to do - liberate. Having women voting upset the status quo. It was liberal to liberate women.
This harkens to my previous complaint, i.e. that you seem to equate all change with liberalism (or progressivism, if you prefer).

It is a crazy caricature of conservatives to suppose that we reflexively oppose all change. Some change is definitely for the better--and sometimes even very late in coming. Other change is for the worse, in my opinion.

It is a case-by-case thing.

But I believe that America is a hugely decent and honorable nation--that no nation, in all of recorded history, can lay reasonable claim to being (or having been) more so--which, nonetheless, has a few imperfections that need to be addressed. Those on the left, I believe, view America much less charitably.

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Given that, are you against the ERA?
Nowadays, most Americans would think of a real-estate company--or perhaps a pitcher's Earned Run Average--whenever hearing the term "ERA." The Equal Rights Amendment was a 1970s-era document; it is currently no more alive than, say, the buggy-whip industry.

That said, I fervently support equal rights for all Americans, irrespective of gender, race, or ethnicity. And I could have supported the Equal Rights Amendment--almost two generations ago, when it was a burning issue--if the matter of its application to churches had been seriously addressed, rather than studiously avoided (with the dismissive response that future court decisions would circumscribe the breadth of the proposed amendment's application).

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I'm a progressive and I don't call anyone wingnuts.
Fair enough.

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Originally Posted by LeonCoDem View Post
I guess you took the 50% as an absolute. You'll also notice I had 20% as well. That means I had no particular number in mind. Could be 6% or 70%... get it?
More precisely, I asserted that you believe "that as much as half of all American conservatives believe in the subservience of women." (bold added)

I believe this adequately took into account the lowball figure of 20 percent. (Although it is something of a mystery to me how it "[c]ould be 6% or 70%" if your own parameters are "20%" to "50%"...)
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  #94 (permalink)  
Old 02-10-2010, 11:04 AM
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2nd attempt, browser crash... ruined a great post. Breaking out Notepad.
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Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
This is not the 1930s. And as for the part about consumer-protection laws being "usually thought of as a "restraint against business," that might apply reasonably well to establishment-type Republicans (think: George Bush 41); but it has very little bearing with many conservatives--and especially little bearing with those of us who are right-wing populists, and who therefore reject both Big Government and Big Business. (And no, I emphatically do not want to see the role of either expanded, in an attempt to act as a check on the other.)
An anti-big business conservative is somewhat rare. Would you then go as far as to use anti-trust law and regulations "liberally" on big business? This is extremely interesting.

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This harkens to my previous complaint, i.e. that you seem to equate all change with liberalism (or progressivism, if you prefer).
No, I speak of progressivism within the political as well as nature of western man to move forward. Liberalism -- unfortunately it has come to refer to the left instead of what it actually is. I would then hope you are liberal too... enjoying the rule of law, freedom of speech, and limitations on the power of government.

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Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
It is a crazy caricature of conservatives to suppose that we reflexively oppose all change. Some change is definitely for the better--and sometimes even very late in coming. Other change is for the worse, in my opinion. It is a case-by-case thing.
Not at all, conservatives can and do change. Do you hold on to more traditions? ...are you more religious? Maybe shared by both left and right in varying degrees.

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Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
But I believe that America is a hugely decent and honorable nation--that no nation, in all of recorded history, can lay reasonable claim to being (or having been) more so--which, nonetheless, has a few imperfections that need to be addressed. Those on the left, I believe, view America much less charitably.
I believe America is a hugely decent and honorable nation. We, however, have a somewhat dirty past with reference in how we've treated our Latin American neighbors as well as our errors in the foreign arena that baffle us 30-50 years later. We may view America with less charitably because we expect more from this great nation. We love America but there's so much that can be fixed, altered, or retired.

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Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
Nowadays, most Americans would think of a real-estate company--or perhaps a pitcher's Earned Run Average [...] And I could have supported the Equal Rights Amendment--almost two generations ago [...]
I should have written "did" instead of "do".

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Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
More precisely, I asserted that you believe "that as much as half of all American conservatives believe in the subservience of women." (bold added) I believe this adequately took into account the lowball figure of 20 percent. (Although it is something of a mystery to me how it "[c]ould be 6% or 70%" if your own parameters are "20%" to "50%"...)
Nevermind, the 20, 6, 70, 50% were all just figuarative anyway.
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  #95 (permalink)  
Old 02-10-2010, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by LeonCoDem View Post
An anti-big business conservative is somewhat rare. Would you then go as far as to use anti-trust law and regulations "liberally" on big business? This is extremely interesting.
What do you consider "anti-big business"? That's vague. Depending on your definition, some libertarians may agree with you. I believe it was Ron Raul that reminded us that not everything that benefits big business represents a free market. If you want an example of a market that is far from being free, yet greatly benefits big businesses, look at US health care. I also have a problem with how much power corporations and unions have in government.
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Old 02-10-2010, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by tennisdude818 View Post
What do you consider "anti-big business"? That's vague. Depending on your definition, some libertarians may agree with you. I believe it was Ron Raul that reminded us that not everything that benefits big business represents a free market. If you want an example of a market that is far from being free, yet greatly benefits big businesses, look at US health care. I also have a problem with how much power corporations and unions have in government.
Ask pjohns, he is the one who informed me. I would rather have strong, functioning regulations.
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  #97 (permalink)  
Old 02-10-2010, 04:37 PM
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Ask pjohns, he is the one who informed me. I would rather have strong, functioning regulations.
I asked you because you used that word, but it doesn't matter. By bringing up regulations I think I have an idea of what you consider "anti-big business."
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Old 02-10-2010, 05:11 PM
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I never understood how anybody could be againts consumer protection. Maybe if you happen to be a CEO for a very big(and I mean very big), it just doesn't make sense.

Consumer protection isn't just good for the consumers but it also helps small businesses by making the very large corporations follow the rules.
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Old 02-10-2010, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by tennisdude818 View Post
I asked you because you used that word, but it doesn't matter. By bringing up regulations I think I have an idea of what you consider "anti-big business."
He says he rejects big government and big business. I have a corporate portfolio. Guess you cannot label me, huh?
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Old 02-11-2010, 03:48 AM
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He says he rejects big government and big business. I have a corporate portfolio. Guess you cannot label me, huh?
Take The Poll in this forum.
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I voted, the results are interesting. And don't worry lol, I didn't think I had that specific of a label on you.
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