Originally Posted by frodo

I was at my city club for lunch yesterday since it was election day and I had proposed a new member. I was talking with my oldest friend, whose opinions I greatly value and whose business acumen has allowed him to accumulate a sizeable fortune. We started discussing current events and he made the comment "America is ungovernable". Then the soup arrived, and we turned the conversation to lighter things.

Now I reached the same conclusion - that America is ungovernable,some months ago, in fact when Obama first ran into brick walls on health reform and in other areas, but what surprised me was that my friend reached the same conclusion, and offered it without any prompting from me. Well that was about Eighteen hours ago, but it stuck in my mind. I've decided to try and set out my reasoning for you to read and to seek your comments.

Now this is a non trivial issue. For your friends around the world, Australia, Britain, Canada and Europe it means, if our Government comes to the same conclusion as I have, that we are going to have to take steps to try and insulate ourselves from the consequences of your actions, because some of them are going to be harmful, perhaps to us, perhaps to you, or both. It's that way because you are a big country with a big economy and you are the worlds only super power at present.

What appears to have happened is that enough Senators and Congressmen are now beholden to a corporate elite to frustrate any legislation that the elite does not like and to only facilitate legislation that will benefit that elite. The problem with that is that the interests of the elite are not the same as the interests of the average American, not by a long way. This is finally dawning on overseas commentators as they look on in horror at the mess that is healthcare reform. The asking of that rhetorical question: "How can people be persuaded to vote for something so obviously against their own interests?" is an indicator of our concern. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8474611.stm


Take your healthcare system. It is quite clear to anyone in Europe or Australia that your system is failing, distorting your economy and in need of reform - we have all had "The Public Option" for generations and it is obvious from a simple perusal of health data and GDP percentages that something is very very wrong. Yet what we have seen is a massive lobbying campaign from the "health industry" that appears set to derail meaningful reform. You can read the talking points used here: http://www.pnhp.org/news/2009/may/fr...ntzs_the_l.php

We are about to see an even bigger and more extreme lobbying campaign against any reform of the financial and banking systems. You can already read what the talking points are going to be here at the bottom of the page : http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_444332.html

Now this isn't about partisan politics where people are arguing about the best way to do something that will benefit all Americans. On one side we have people arguing about what is best for America, but the other side is arguing about what's best for their corporation. I saw this personally when we hired an American, Sol Trujillo, to run our largest, almost monopoly telecommunications company, Telstra. The Government put restrictions on it for that reason - to ensure it didn't gouge captive customers and provided a quality service throughout the country. Sol's sole imported American business strategy was to cajole, threaten and lobby Government to ease its restrictions. We were glad to see the last of him. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_Trujillo

Now it is apparent from the actions of the last decade that the elite and the corporations they control are winning. There was a time when an American free press acted as sufficient check on abuse of power, but those days are over. There is very little quality news journalism in America these days, what you get instead is "infotainment" for an increasingly poorly educated and dumbed down population that does not seem to know or care what is happening to it. Yet, when your President correctly identifies the need to spend more on education people demonstrates attitudes like this: Obama wants over 32% more money for the Education Industry! Most people only have access to the public education system, why not try and fix it?

Then of course what passes for fact in American media is more often than not cleverly disguised opinion from a paid corporate shill hiding in a think tank somewhere, like the Kagans, Krauthammers and Kristols. The net result is a poorly educated people surrounded by a sea of disinformation. Is it any wonder that attitudes such as "911 changes everything" can hold and take root? Is it any wonder that unconstitutional acts aren't even punished? Is this the Land of Washington? Nope.

What is worse, the skeleton of what America is going to look like in Five years time is rapidly becoming obvious to those who know where to look. In the military dimension, the legal and operational barriers between local law enforcement, military intelligence, military contractors and the military themselves have been deliberately blurred in the name of "counter terrorism". Do any of you understand the lethal effect on freedom and liberty of a seamless organisation extending from your local cop to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs Of Staff? Someone does:



http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/

There is another dimension though - the fusing and melding of lobbyists corporations and legislators has been taken to new heights, but what concerns me much more is that the concepts of "privatisation" - private sector replacing Government activity, for example in the prison system, is rearing it's ugly heads.

Let me tell you that without a watertight barrier between legislators and corporations - which you do not have at all, privatisation is simply another name for organised theft. You can see a very small example of it here: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/...n4895883.shtml
Of course that's just a little scandal involving a contractor and a corrupt judge, but what if your social security system is privatised??

The only threat the military industrial complex underestimated was the internet, but don't worry, that will soon be under control thanks to concerns about "cybersecurity". For example Google is going to be "helped" by the NSA to research a Chinese attack on its computers http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.ac...59174697244816 Do you understand that once Google and the NSA have a "working relationship' that it will be extended over time? Can you expect a SWAT team at your apartment in future if you Google a few words like "Hohlraum" and "Neutron cross section"? Perhaps.

It looks to me that the fusion of the Government and the military industrial complex is almost complete. The differences for example between private contractors from Blackwater and combat troops are looking smaller by the day. Lockheeds new F35 for example will be maintained by Lockheed contractors not airforce staff. It is going to get increasingly difficult to discern the differences between the Government of America and an armed corporation and be aware that corporations, unlike Governments of the people, for the people and by the people, have absolutely no morals or scruples whatsoever.

Originally Posted by wist43

A reading of the 10th amendment that would result in the "dissolution of the federal government"??? Wow...

The 10th amendment simply states that the FedGov can't do anything it is not specifically authorized to do by the Constitution itself - pretty straight forward and honest. I know leftists hate things to be so simple... leaves no wiggle room to play "the game".

As for your idea that our problems are born out of propaganda... that's not the problem, it's complete ignorance of the people that is the problem. The vast majority of Americans believe we are a democracy, and that whatever they say is what should be done - that is not true, or at least shouldn't be true. We're supposed to be a Republic, i.e. under the rule of law - where the law restricts government, not the people... leftists have successfully turned that upside down with all of their "living document" nonsense that is propagandized in the public schools.

Like all democracies, once the majority realize they can simply vote themselves goodies out of the public treasury, it is only a matter of time b/4 the economy and society collapse under the weight of its own corruption.

And when it comes to propaganda itself... yes, Americans are under seige, but we've got nothing on anyone who has to suffer to listen to the BBC - good gravy, lol...

I listen to the BBC while I'm at work... Joseph Goebbels would be proud. It is purely Orwellian, yet it passes for "news".

In the end, Europe is just as close to dissolution as is the U.S... we're both going down, sure as the Titanic sinking was a "mathmatical certainty", so too is the wests demise.

Originally Posted by Léon Bloy, 1904

Lack of money characterizes my life to such an extent that, even when i don't have any money at all, it seems to dwindle even further.

Originally Posted by My Fing ID

So if I'm getting the gist of this, we're ungovernable because we can't push through legislation that half the country doesn't want?

Originally Posted by LeonCoDem

And holding up presidential appointments until a Republican Senator, Richard Shelby from Ala-dam-bama gets paid his pork. The way it's supposed to operate is give and take, finding common ground. If Republican Alpha wants A, B, and C... and Democrat Alpha wants D, E, and F... they get together and decide how each can get what they desire. The Republicans won't do that and obstruct everything presented. They want to play the game until they have the ball. When they don't, they refuse to play. So, what will happen is that Congress will likely change hands and the Democrats will do the same. It's back and forth B.S.

The Repubs need to act like a minority party. Work with the majority to do something. If the electorate doesn't like what the Democrats do, they'll be replaced. That's how it's supposed to work... well until 2009, anyway.

Originally Posted by highway234

well, i think this actually makes my point. where does this interpretation of the 10th amendment come from that suddenly overturns decades of how government has been practiced? i take it that the US government has been operating in violation of the 10th amendment for... what? 40 years? 50? 60? more? why haven't i heard about it before now? could it be because the 10th amendment is now a glenn beck/fox news/conservative radio talking point, but 5 years ago, it wasn't?

if america's not a democracy, why have i been hearing all my life that it is? and why do conservatives now have these ideas that A. they weren't talking about a decade ago, and B. are antithetical to the way the United States has been governed all my life?

you're going to take offense but my theory is that conservatives are among the most heavily propagandized people in the history of ostensibly free nations. if fox and friends (or whoever you're getting these ideas from) can convince you that america isn't a democracy when democracy is the country's founding principle.... well, then, frankly, they've done quite a number on you.

Originally Posted by highway234

well, i think this actually makes my point. where does this interpretation of the 10th amendment come from that suddenly overturns decades of how government has been practiced? i take it that the US government has been operating in violation of the 10th amendment for... what? 40 years? 50? 60? more? why haven't i heard about it before now? could it be because the 10th amendment is now a glenn beck/fox news/conservative radio talking point, but 5 years ago, it wasn't?

if america's not a democracy, why have i been hearing all my life that it is? and why do conservatives now have these ideas that A. they weren't talking about a decade ago, and B. are antithetical to the way the United States has been governed all my life?

you're going to take offense but my theory is that conservatives are among the most heavily propagandized people in the history of ostensibly free nations. if fox and friends (or whoever you're getting these ideas from) can convince you that america isn't a democracy when democracy is the country's founding principle.... well, then, frankly, they've done quite a number on you.

Originally Posted by The Big Kahuna

Your original statement was so factually incorrect I felt compelled to correct it for you. Less Fox News and more reality please. Thanks.