I agree. Sometimes people react defensively and that is understandable, but there is no call for that kind of nonsense.

Especially between nationalities which are supposedly supportive of the same basic ideology, i.e freedom etc.

The one about descending from slave traders and religious bigots...we are all the same people, as that comment shows. Who is it insulting?? Euros or US? Both.

Hey Frogger,

I realize I'm probably one of the posters you're refering too. But to be quite honest, the last days I questioned myself "What the hell is happening to me in regarding PForum?".
And it almost seems that a lot of threads are being "taken over" by the Euros, and the "Oceanics" - meaning that a lot of criticism is being formulated towards the American nation.

And I have absolutely no idea where it comes from - but I'll have a guess.

If criticism is given to the American nation - American citizens tend to take it very personally and see it as an attack upon them self. Replies like the above "it's envy" are standard. Whilst in fact it has nothing to do with envy. What should we be envy about? I just do not see it. I'll take that rather offensive - and because the stats don't add up.
If an American themselves formulate a critic on their nation it is considered "self hatred" and they "need to move to Europe". Like's we're some hellwhole, or it almost is a punishment to live under the European banner.

It also has to do with what we read in our newspapers or see on our news broadcastings. If Americans, or a group of Americans, are stating "with this healthbill, you're placing Death panels in order - just look to Europe".
Or if Americans say that "you guys are socialists and we're free - it's that simple: we are better". I find that offensive and it is based on nothing more than assumptions.

Also, you can see a clear emerging of an "European identity" - you can't underestimate such a feeling. The last decade there is, as it seems, more self awareness in the European project. By now there is an "European Dream" and the Euros have a very different perspective upon world wide security.
This, in my opinion, is triggered by aspects like the American-led (illigal) Iraqi-invasion and world wide competition with emerging countries like China, Brazil and India - that makes us, the Euros, realize there is only one future - the Eurpean one, which we need to build-out ourselves - even if that goes against America's intrests.
That feeling - that we have nothing (or very little) to learn (or to copy) from the American nation is also led by books like "Why Europe will lead the 21st century" by Mark Leonard. You should read it - you don't have to agree with it - but I'm sure it will give you some sort of an awser or idea in regarding to your questions.

"Those who believe Europe to be weak and ineffectual are wrong. Turning conventional wisdom on its head, Mark Leonard, one of the UK’s most visionary thinkers, argues that Europe is remaking the world in its own image.
Europe only looks dead because it is seen through American eyes. But America’s reach is shallow and narrow. It can bribe, bully or impose its will anywhere in the world, but when its back is turned its potency wanes. Europe’s reach is broad and deep, spreading its values from Albania to Zambia. It brings other countries into its orbit rather than defining itself against them, and once countries come under the influence of its laws and customs they are changed forever.
This book sets us a challenge: to regard Europe not as a tangle of bureaucracy and regulation, but as a revolutionary model for the future. We cannot afford to forget that Europe was founded to protect us against war and that it is now key to the spread of democracy. Why Europe Will Run the 21st Century addresses Europe’s place in the world, looks to the past and the future and argues, provocatively, that it can and will shape a new and better world order."

"Imagine a world of peace, prosperity and democracy. A world where small countries are as sovereign as large ones, a world where what matters is that you obey the law—rather than whether you are with us or against us."

"Europe, quietly, has rediscovered within its foundations a revolutionary model for the future and an alternative to American hard power. With little fanfare, Europe has pooled the resources and the sovereignty of its nations into a radical new interface – and a power that is discreetly but insistently shaping the path forward. The revolution they have unleashed, Leonard argues, will transform the world. Whether you are a neocon or a transatlantic traditionalist, a businessmen or financier, his argument is one you cannot afford to ignore."

There are also other books like 'The European Superpower', 'The European Dream: How Europe's vision of the Future is Quitly Eclipsing the American Dream', 'United States of Europe: the Superpower No-One Talks About',...

I just think it has a lot to do with different worldviews. In my opinion, indeed, find that of the EU superior - we walked America's path before. But this is just of course my opinion.

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"No more borders! The Rhine to everyone! Let us be the same Republic, let us be the United States of Europe, let us be the continental federation, let us be the European freedom, let us be the universal peace!" - Victor Hugo, 1st of March 1871 in L'Assemblée Nationale

janpor,

I actually wasn't talking about you.

I am happy that the United States of Europe seems to finally be becoming a reality. I can remember reading about it in a book written in the 1930s. This is a vision that is not new.

Healthy competition is a good thing and differences of opinion are nothing new. There is a new nastiness to the present differences of opinion now though. There seems to be some sort of glee in the problems that are affecting the United States at present. Kicking someone when they are down has never been considered to be in good taste.

Europeans should remember, what goes around comes around. They should not be quite so quick to write off the United States. We have had problems in the past and overcome them.

If Europeans want a relationship of anger and confrontation vis a vis the United States rather than one of friendship and commity they should be prepared to get a bit of what they are giving directed back at them. While the United States may be in a bit of a down turn it is still the world's most powerful nation.

Tell me f**k you often enough and I will begin saying f**k you right back.

__________________
Vox clamanto in deserto.

“There is no social entity with a good that undergoes some sacrifice for its own good. There are only individual people, different individual people, with their own individual lives. Using one of these people for the benefit of others, uses him and benefits the others. Nothing more.” Robert Nozick

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"A successful man, is a man who has enough" unknown sherpa

And it also has the most lutefisk.

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Vox clamanto in deserto.

“There is no social entity with a good that undergoes some sacrifice for its own good. There are only individual people, different individual people, with their own individual lives. Using one of these people for the benefit of others, uses him and benefits the others. Nothing more.” Robert Nozick

Since you consider Europeans might be envious of the US, perhaps you would also state your reasons for considering so.

Penis envy. mine mainly.

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The United Church of the Latter Day Tangential Tarts
"When I'm in command, every mission is a suicide mission!" -Capt. Zapp Branigan
"Did you know that Republicans are stupid and evil?" -Bill O'Reilly, Feb 2010

Well, when we had to go over there twice in 30 years to save them from Germany and then spend another 40 years over there protecting them from Stalinist Russia, it makes sense that Euros will want to put us down now that they do not 'need' us over there at this point in time.

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Since everyone seems to enjoy putting in all of these nice 'laws' in their signatures, here is a new one.

Erls' Theorem: With every new post on a PF topic, the odds of the terms 'racist' and 'socialist' being used geometrically increase.

Look frogger iit is actually a far bigger question than you may think. Its really about the future of the world.

both sides of the atlantic are the richest continents but both have their different outlooks. crucially both want the rest of the world to follow their path.

we europeans believe your american way is a road to ruin and hardship, americans obviously believe their way represents the best way.

on a smaller scale you do tend to make yourselves look very silly when you elect people like bush then expect to be a world leader. having a big modern army is one thing but its really about setting an example. So in the end do you really think the developing world wants to be like the US? Beleive me they dont.

why would they want to put you down because you saved us from germany and russia?

if the europeans had saved the US east coast from the west coast in some continental civil war would you want to out europeans down?

anyway, the british saved europe too, along with the empire, and kept the russians out. so are the british condescended to?