More abortions = more deaths. Every single abortion results in at least one death. Banning abortions therefore saves at least that many lives.

Not in this context. I was using slavery as an example of something else you should not compromise on. Slavery is wrong and should be outlawed...there is no compromise.

Because if push comes to shove, I will side with people like ForceoftheTruth, even though i dont agree with their definition.

Because people still consider the fetus as the mother's property, as opposed to being an actual person.

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Scientifically, a distinct life is formed at conception in that the zygote is of DNA distinct from that of both the mother and the father. Now if any argument is made for destroying that life, it must be based on the premise that interdependence justifies killing, in which case any of us may be killed, or that some degree of unintentional suffering justifies killing, and based on that logic we could kill anyone who, intentionally or unintentionally, caused us pain, or finally that it is wrong to kill a person only if they know that they are being killed in their last moments, which would justify killing someone if it were done while they were in a coma or done too quickly for them to have any realization of it. All of these arguments are unthinkable when applied to grown adults, so I hold that we have to draw an absolute line as to what a person is. If personhood begins with the formation of the forebrain, then the fetus must, prior to that point, either be dead or genetically part of the mother. If this is not the case, then we can only state that life does indeed begin at conception. That is a phrase that some people associate with religion, but it is actually scientific. Until a scientist produces evidence that a fetus is dead or genetically one with its mother up to a certain point in pregnancy, it is the only logical position to take. A person isn't a "little bit alive". Either they are or aren't alive. Of course, I know from experience that such words make people consider me a religious nut for my views, despite the fact that I held them even when I was a non-religious liberal and the fact that I use very similar reasoning as the basis for opposing the death penalty, so there really is no point in debating the issue, since almost no one changes their views on it. I've learned from experience that pro-choice people stay pro-choice and pro-life people stay pro-life. I have seen every pro-choice case but I find none of them persuasive, and I'm sure that pro-choice people think the same of pro-life arguments.

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"I am a Tory Anarchist. I should like every one to go about doing just as he pleased- short of altering any of the things to which I have grown accustomed." (Max Beerbohm)

This is logically false. You're mixing up "personhood" and "life."

There are many genetically distinct organisms on this planet that are not people. And in the case of plants, at least, not conscious.

If personhood begins with the forebrain, then prior to that point a fetus is simply a human-shaped chunk of tissue.

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Man up.

I agree. That's why I don't debate the topic. It's possible for someone to change his or her mind, of course. But it's so rare that for me it's never worth the effort. Waste of time and bandwidth. I suppose if I had endless time it might be worth it, but I don't.

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I wasn't born with enough middle fingers.

Banning abortion won't stop it happening. Women will still go for abortions except they will do it in unsanitary conditions and will therefore be likely to get an infection and die, so not only will the unborn child die, but so will the mother.

You have stated that abortion is acceptable if the mother's life is at risk, therefore you have compromised.

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It's the difference between suicide and slow capitulation... - Jim Morrison

Banning abortions will result in fewer abortions, even if the number is not reduced to zero.

Not all women. See above.

It is like saying that if a rapist mutilates himself because he cant rape women, that we should feel sorry for him and make rape legal. No....even though I dont want to see him mutilate himself, I dont want him to rape women either.

Jail acts as a deterrant for crime, even if it does not deter ALL crime.

That is like saying I am compromising on murder because I think people have a right to kill in self defense. If you want to stretch semantics that far, use whatever definition makes you feel better. I've made my point.

Your experience has been shallow then. I used to be rabidly pro-choice. Maybe you just arnt trying hard enough.

Some of us like a challenge.

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Banning abortion will likely result in more deaths without vastly reducing abortions, just as banning alcohol in the 20's resulted in more alcohol consumption. Banning it outright is not the solution.

You are compromising on murder if that is your position.

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It's the difference between suicide and slow capitulation... - Jim Morrison

You believe banning abortions will INCREASE the incentive to have an abortion? Huh?

What data are you basing that on?

There is no parallel between abortion and alcohol consumption.

By your logic we should legalize rape, as it will result in fewer rapes. Right?

Most people would not consider that a compromise, but whatever makes you feel better.

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No, I never said that.

No. Legalising abortion will not result in fewer abortions, banning it will result in slightly fewer abortions but will also result in more deaths. Neither will result in a significant decrease in abortions.


If you say that murder is always wrong, you are not compromising. If you say murder is sometimes right, then you are compromising.

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It's the difference between suicide and slow capitulation... - Jim Morrison

Do you have some data to base this on that doesnt involve a crystal ball?

Killing in self defense is not defined as murder. Therefore there is no compromise.

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My Political Blog (Most recent update Oct 3rd) - Which Flame Warrior are you?