But the baby is genetically distinct from the mother. The fact that the baby is dependent on the mother doesn't negate the baby's right to exist (we are all interdependent to some degree), nor does it make the baby part of the mother. Moreover, unborn babies have an independent consciousness. This link indicates (near the top of the page) that single-celled animals have a consciousness, so I think that it is safe to state that an infant's consciousness begins at conception:

http://www.dhushara.com/book/brainp/Chaoq.htm

Furthermore, the baby's brain waves can be detected at 6 weeks, while viability is typically 22 to 24 weeks.

__________________
"I am a Tory Anarchist. I should like every one to go about doing just as he pleased- short of altering any of the things to which I have grown accustomed." (Max Beerbohm)

Which is why the abortion question will only be settled by compromise, not by the total victory of one side or another. Because it involves the collision of two competing, but legitimate interests -- which means any one-sided solution will be unjust to some degree.

Standards such as "viability" or "higher consciousness" won't satisfy the purists on either side -- but they do the best job of balancing the competing interests.

__________________
Man up.

Not any consciousness we'd recognize as human.

Brain waves just mean there is electrical activity. Best I can tell, the six-week figure is a *very* old pro-life canard:

http://eileen.250x.com/Main/Einstein/Brain_Waves.htm
Functional maturity of the cerebral cortex is suggested by fetal and neonatal electroencephalographic patterns...First, intermittent electroencephalograpic bursts in both cerebral hemispheres are first seen at 20 weeks gestation; they become sustained at 22 weeks and bilaterally synchronous at 26 to 27 weeks.

__________________
Man up.

That is a pro-choice site. In searching the web, I can't find a site that isn't pro-choice or pro-life that offers any information on the subject. If a zygote has a consciousness (if a single-celled animal can so can a zygote) and it is a human zygote, what consciousness would it have other than human consciousness?

__________________
"I am a Tory Anarchist. I should like every one to go about doing just as he pleased- short of altering any of the things to which I have grown accustomed." (Max Beerbohm)

So if a baby is born paralyzed, it's not a person? What does that have to do with anything?

The fact that it CANT control it's own body does not make it property to be disposed of as the mother see's fit.

No I dont. The argument isnt about her body. It is about the body of the child.

Scenerio: You have two conjoined twins. Separating them will kill the weaker one. Does the stronger one have a right to force a separation? After all, it IS their own body they are controlling, right?

That was the argument that changed my mind on abortion. The fact that one of two connected people is stronger than the other does not mean they can kill the other one.

So people only have rights when they can survive unassisted? Is that your criteria?

See my conjoined twin example above.

One injustice results in death. The other results in short or longer term pain and inconvenience. Death is worse.

Since we have no way of knowing for sure, I prefer to err on the side of caution.

__________________
My Political Blog (Most recent update Oct 3rd) - Which Flame Warrior are you?

I think you're overstating that article's conclusion about single-cell consciousness. It says that consciousness is an evolutionarily advantageous trait that *begins* with non-conscious activity at the single-cell level -- the point being that the development of consciousness provides advantages even before it reaches actual consciousness.

At least, that's what I think it says. That site is not particularly coherent.

Try this link:
http://brainmind.com/FetalBrainDevelopment.html

The researcher doesn't state when he thinks consciousness emerges, but he's pretty clear that the early brain activity is brain-stem related.

__________________
Man up.

What are human thoughts but more complex combinations of the "chaotic excitations" to which the site refers? An unborn baby doesn't suddenly transform into a thinking being. It is a gradual process and it starts at conception.

__________________
"I am a Tory Anarchist. I should like every one to go about doing just as he pleased- short of altering any of the things to which I have grown accustomed." (Max Beerbohm)

The process may start at conception, but until there's a forebrain there can be no consciousness. We allow "brain dead" adults to be removed from life support. Mere brain stem activity does not constitute personhood.

You can be dogmatic about it and insist that life and consciousness begin at conception. From a purely philosophical point of view, you can build such a case. But as a matter of science you would be incorrect, and as a matter of public policy all you do with a stance like that is guarantee eternal war and argument on this topic.

If you truly want to settle the abortion question, then both sides need to compromise. Pro-lifers have to agree that, even if they believe life begins at conception, there are competing concerns and a more widely accepted dividing line needs to be found. Pro-choicers have to agree that, the more developed the fetus, the more rights it has and at some point the fetus' rights outweigh those of the mother, all other things being equal.

I think viability or consciousness both present defensible rationales for drawing that line. Happily they seem to settle in roughly the same place, gestationwise.

__________________
Man up.

Brain stem activity does constitute personhood (morally, not legally). The brain is made of nerves. Nerves, in turn, are made of cells, and cell division is what drives fetal development. Some level of consciousness must exist from conception, therefore.

__________________
"I am a Tory Anarchist. I should like every one to go about doing just as he pleased- short of altering any of the things to which I have grown accustomed." (Max Beerbohm)

Well, then, prepare for a neverending war over abortion. You cannot win with such a stance if you attempt to make it a basis for public policy. Too many people (myself included) think that a brain stem just means you're a functioning biological machine -- a sack of meat. Personhood requires consciousness and self-awareness.

That's illogical. A synapse is not conscious, nor does it create consciousness. It's the interaction of millions of synapses, connected to other brain structures such as those that supply memory and stimuli, that create consciousness.

__________________
Man up.