I've been thinking about the issue of affirmative action and what stance I should take. I suddenly realized that I don't deserve a say about it at all. I am a white male. I don't have a right to tell women and minorities whether they should or should not be part of affirmative action programs or whether such programs should be expanded, scaled back, kept as they are or eliminated. I therefore ask for the opinions of women and minorities on this site. Do you support affirmative action, and if so, to what extent? Once I find out what wrongfully oppressed groups want and need, I will support it. Please vote in the poll only if you are a woman or a member of a downtrodden racial or ethnic minority. Thank you very much.

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"I am a Tory Anarchist. I should like every one to go about doing just as he pleased- short of altering any of the things to which I have grown accustomed." (Max Beerbohm)

Of course you have a right to decide for yourself if you're for or against affirmative action. It DOES affect you. Being a white male does not disqualify you. I voted in your poll even though I have never felt wrongfully oppressed in my life.

Discrimination isn't always wrong, discrimination for the wrong reasons is wrong.

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Order without liberty and liberty without order are equally destructive. - Theodore Roosevelt

Force, to illustrate the illogic of your stance, envision what it would look like if the subject was welfare instead of affirmative action.

"A proposal is on the table to transfer wealth from the rich to the very poor so that they won't be so poor. Do you think this is a good idea? PLEASE ONLY VOTE IF YOU ARE LIKELY TO BE A RECIPIENT OF THESE FUNDS."

What do you suppose the vote total would be?

Clearly, minorities and women are the only ones who can tell you whether they feel they are discriminated against and provide examples of how it happens and what the effect is. But it's up to all of us to decide what to do about it.

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Scarred survivor of the April 2008 Mod War.

White males can't comprehend the true nature and extent of gender and race oppression, while anyone who has ever struggled financially can relate to the impoverished to some degree.

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"I am a Tory Anarchist. I should like every one to go about doing just as he pleased- short of altering any of the things to which I have grown accustomed." (Max Beerbohm)

The logic remains.

"Okay, green folks! You've been discriminated against. We're going to do something about it. Everybody who has been discriminated against, vote on what should be done."

(Vote is conducted)

"Okay, what's the result?"

"Well, sir, they've agreed that we need to give them all of our money, automatic A's in school and preferential shots at the best jobs. Oh, and they need their houses cleaned."

Asking the people who benefit from a particular policy whether that policy should be continued is like asking flowers whether they like rain, bees and sunshine.

Affirmative action should be a *temporary* measure to help overcome the effects of past discrimination. Temporary could mean a very long time, but there should be a clear definition of success after which such programs are terminated. Otherwise you're just replacing one form of discrimination with another.

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Scarred survivor of the April 2008 Mod War.

That all depends on whether or not current sexist and racist attitudes go away.

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"I am a Tory Anarchist. I should like every one to go about doing just as he pleased- short of altering any of the things to which I have grown accustomed." (Max Beerbohm)

Well, let me just ask you...have you ever lived in a neighborhood where you, as a white male, are the minority? If you have, then I certainly do think you might have some comprehension.

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Tiger got to hunt, Bird got to fly, Man got to sit and wonder 'Why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, Bird got to land, Man got to tell himself he understand.
~Bokonon

Society tends to be blind to its current biases. And anyway, antidiscrimination laws, not preferential treatment, are the way to address current problems.

Affirmative action is all about fixing *past* inequities. Once that's accomplished (by meeting clearly defined criteria), any given AA program should end.

And the program should only exist in the first place if the discrimination rises to a level where it materially affects the prospects of the victim. There should be a strong presumption that AA is inherently unreasonable, because it is inherently discriminatory. It's only justified as a temporary measure to fix a larger harm.

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Scarred survivor of the April 2008 Mod War.

That would be true only if we were able to detect and punish all discrimination. Since we can't, there has to be a countermeasure.

No, affirmative action can also fix current inequality.

I think that racism is usually economically motivated and will exist as long as economic rivalry exists. Sexism is based on evil tendencies inherent in most males and so is also unlikely to go away.

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"I am a Tory Anarchist. I should like every one to go about doing just as he pleased- short of altering any of the things to which I have grown accustomed." (Max Beerbohm)

No. Affirmative action is too blunt an instrument to be used in such a case. Consider, for example, that if we can't detect all discrimination, we also cannot detect with certainty when it has ceased occurring. So if we use AA to combat conjectured discrimination, we may actually be creating a case where the *only* discrimination is that being wrought by AA.

AA is itself discrimination. Thus it should only be used to remedy proven cases of egregious discrimination.

Which is why you make acting on those tendencies illegal. But responding with group punishment is unjust unless the discrimination was pervasive and systemic.

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Scarred survivor of the April 2008 Mod War.