I understand that when it comes to Gov't there are no simple solutions. In almost every case that we discuss on this forum, there are nuances that most of us don't even know exist. None of us know what is going to happen in the future, and what is beautiful about this sight is that we get to deabte about things that have already happened or get to debate the decisions of others when they might not have had the info we have now when they made that decision. As they say, hindsight is 20/20. Making decisions is a major part of what being a leader is. Being able to make the choice that may not be popular b/c that is what you believe, or making the choice that no one else is willing to make and then be slammed b/c you may have made the wrong decision. And I do believe, with few excpetions, that a wrong decision is better than no decision.
However, I am looking for consistency. If we are going to criticize nations like China for Human Rights, or Middle Eastern Nations for their treatment of women, thenwe must practice what we preach. In light of what has come to pass in the AB prison and maybe others, many have said that this is war and the Geneva convention does not apply to those prisoners or the ones in Cuba. Forget the geneva convention, these people are human aren't they? If we truly believe that all humans have equal, unalienable rights, then we should not tolerate this kind of behavior. If I have the right to marry who I want to marry, then why can't a gay person marry who they want to marry. Whether you condone homosexuality or not, don't they have the same unalienable rights to pursue happiness just as everyone else? If we are willing to fight evil in the Middle East, where there is precious amounts of oil, shouldn't we be willing to fight genocide in Africa where there are virtually no natural resources?
I am an American who feels that the rights guranteed to me in the US are not just for Americans. The rights we value here are just as valuable to everyone else in the world. If we truly believe that Americans are privelaged in our freedoms and rights, and we truly believe that all men are equal, then we cannot refuse rights that we cherish to someone whois not American just b/c they are from another place. Being born somewhere else makes a person no less human, thus makes their rights as a human no less unalienable than our own.
So I beg you to stand up and say that we will no longer hide behind the geneva convention, or nationality. What we gurantee to Americans we should not deny to others. The rights we cherish do not only apply to those whole live under our flag, they belong to everyone. What is wrong to do to Americans, is wrong to do to anyone else.
And please, leave God out of this. If you disagree with something for religious reason, then just realize that not everyone has the same religious beliefs and no one belief is better than anyone elses. Let's have an intelligent, non-secular discussion, please.

-Demosthenes

__________________
"A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both."
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

Demosthenes-
I think you have identified a very real issue- Having traveled a bit over the last couple of years, it's very clear that citizens of many other countries have been very concerned that we've gotten the "big head" and are out of control. I certainly believe this to be true.

But as we've been discussing in the Mickey thread, I think we're also running a bit of a risk to focus to deeply on this single issue. From our other discussions you know that I'm certainly not a Bush supporter. But I'm finding it harder and harder to concentrate ON PRACTICALLY ANY "NEGITIVE" ISSUE THESE DAYS because they all turn out to be tactical in the long run.

In other words, if we choose to make Iraq, our lack of national humility, or any other stupid thing that Bush has done the primary focus of debate, it’s incredibly likely that the pendulum will simply swing and we’ll just bring in Kerry with his own brand of political faults instead.

It’s a bit like the coach walking up to a pitcher on the mound at the bottom of the 8th, with bases are loaded, and saying, “you better not throw to the outside because you know this batter loves that pitch”. Sure the pitcher might luck out and pull the play off, but by laser focusing on a single issue, it’s very likely that he’ll miss the big picture and more than probable that he will throw to the outside because that’s the focus.

Or as Mickey has been putting it, we live in a world of extremes- Sure we’ve got big problems with Bush, but we don’t have decent healthcare, strong job growth, immigration reform, or a strong economy based on close relationships between labor and management. Shouldn’t we focus on the bigger picture? Or am I pulling to hard for Mickey in this case?

Cheers

]http://vote-mickey-04.blogspot.com/
Let’s start a conversation about change

you gotta understand something, Sometimes I use this forum as a means to vent whatever is on my mind. This morning, this issue was on my mind. My mind is full of ideas and I like to share them. I appreciate outside views, even if they don't agree with me. Maybe they will show me the light, maybe I will show them. That is the point of this forum to me. So, I would appreciate your point of view on this topic as well.

-Demosthenes

__________________
"A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both."
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

Demosthenes-

I'm glad you're "thinking out loud" here- It's a good place to do it and especially helps me as I try to understand where people are coming from..ie walk a mile in your shoes, etc.

Back to your specific issue, I don't believe we are dealing with any intentional conspiracies, nor do I believe that Bush and co are intentionally trying to create such havoc. I think he simply walked into a wall that more logical folks would have recognized well ahead of the game:

1. He retains the US centric view straight out of WW2 that his father handed him and didn't get the obvious distinction between "strong policeman coming to the rescue of those who called for him" vs. "300lb bully"

2. He has an incredibly poor understanding of cause and effect, but almost all politicians have this deficiency these days.

3. He's not listening to the people at all. I understand this is a republic and wars require difficult decisions, but as we learned from the Greek tragedies, the chorus is the sounding board that must be evaluated on a daily basis to avoid the weaknesses within an individual’s thinking.

#3 is the ironic one- Clinton always appeared to be listening even when he was clueless.

In other words, Bush isn’t capable of seeing the big picture but rules with the big stick and closed ears of one who truly believes they know what they are doing- I think he thinks he’s Churchill

http://vote-mickey-04.blogspot.com/
Let’s start a conversation about change

I don't doubt that Bush is an intelligent man. I just think he always looks for the simple answer and assumes it is going to work. this is a very complicated situation, and I don't know whether or not he is capable of that depth, but don't think he wants to either.
I'm not sure if he thinks he is churchill, Teddy Roosevelt may be more accurate.

-Demosthenes

__________________
"A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both."
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

Yeah the quote is teddy's and he certainly did his share of alienating small countres on other continents (Columbia come to mind.)

But I still see the Churchill connection- Both will push blindly ahead based on what they feel is correct even at the expense of public opinion. A good trait when you are correct, but...


http://vote-mickey-04.blogspot.com/
Let’s start a conversation about change

I don't see what evidence there is that Dubya is "intelligent."
I am from Texas, and my observation that he goes where he is told, says what he is told to say (badly, sometimes unintelligibly) and signs what he is told to sign. This is 'Howdy Doody' as President.

Under his administration, the First Amendment has been raped and gutted (google: "free speech zones"), the 4th and 5th Amendments are now in force only at the whim of the Federal Government and Eichmann, oops sorry, Ashcroft, and the media and White House communications operate according to the principles of their mentor, Joseph Goebbels.

When the American people were last oppressed by a tyrant named George, real patriots drew the following conclusion: -That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evincesa design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. --Such has been the patient sufferance of our people; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present Tyrant of these United States [George W. Bush] is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States.

This tyrant should be impeached, and should the unthinkable happen and he steals another election, I believe that another civil war is inevitable. The treason and the tyranny of Bush can not be tolerated anymore.