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Old 02-22-2006, 08:44 PM
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Hansmoleman Hansmoleman is offline
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My signature is not derogatory, it simply repeats what you have said in the past. People can draw their own conclusions.

And my political ideology is what I believe in, and I don't engage in personal attacks based on this, it's just what I believe. What you said was clearly a personal attack.
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Old 02-22-2006, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by ForceoftheTruth";p=&quot View Post
So is your signature... and so is the far-flung rhetoric of somebody who rationalizes away human misery with rhetoric associating capitalism with the "spiritual".
Sometimes I wonder why I even bother debating a socialist at all. Get outside their class war mentality and you are called one of the sheep. Talk about your own personal beliefs and you get personal insults back. But I expect to much from these ideological driven men who can't look outside their own little box they put themselves in. Tell me what is it like getting up everyday hating the world, everything around you and even yourself? How could you live like that. Quite frankly I'm glad I love and enjoy life for all its ups and downs and evils, and you are in my prays force.
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Old 02-22-2006, 08:48 PM
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changes his mind on politics like most people change their underwear.
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Old 02-22-2006, 08:55 PM
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Hans, maybe that's because I try to find what works, and finding it is hard and complicated. For example, when I first came to this site, I was against free trade. Stekim, however, gave me a link of studies that I could not refute, so, left or right, I now support free trade. You give me studies proving that wealth redistribution, apart from the obvious dangers of an actual communist government, actually makes the poor poorer, then I'll be a capitalist. Until then I have to follow my inner feelings on the subject, feelings that make me support economic equality.
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Old 02-22-2006, 09:02 PM
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you shouldn't need any studies on the matter to find out what is true. The US has one of the most capitalistic economy and we are also the wealthiest. And every nation that has adopted socialism or communism has had a slow, stagnant economy. Their solution has become their problem. But hey, if you want to remain a socialist, I suggest you move to a socialist country to find out for yourself. As for me, I am just fine where I am.
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Old 02-22-2006, 09:10 PM
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Of course I need studies. The United States is larger and has more natural resources than European welfare states. The comparison isn't valid unless you can show a correlation between socialism and economic downturns that hurt the poor. I go by the principle of maximin, i.e. I support whatever makes the poorest person in a society richest.
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Old 02-22-2006, 10:13 PM
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Okay, let me be honest here. What bothers me is not capitalism per se. It is the fact that some people seem to see capitalism as a mandate from God and/or the only patriotic way to think (with patriotism becoming a religion in practice). Either capitalism works or it doesn't, but neither capitalism nor socialism is divinely commanded or the only "American" way to think.
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Old 02-23-2006, 05:56 AM
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Default Two things.

First, "millions" of people are not starving to death. Actually, next to no one in this country is. So that's a non-starter. Yes, there are millions of poor people. And some people are indeed homeless and millions don't have health coverage, etc. But people by and large are not dying from starvation.

Second, and please keep this in mind, Corporations don't pay taxes. Period. All the taxes paid by a corporation are ultimately paid by its customers. If you increase taxes on them you are, in essence, increasing taxes on you. Keep that in mind. You also make American companies less competitive against foreign ones with lower tax rates. So tax them 5% or 95%, but in the end it's YOU who pays.
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Old 02-23-2006, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForceoftheTruth";p=&quot View Post
Okay, let me be honest here. What bothers me is not capitalism per se. It is the fact that some people seem to see capitalism as a mandate from God and/or the only patriotic way to think (with patriotism becoming a religion in practice). Either capitalism works or it doesn't, but neither capitalism nor socialism is divinely commanded or the only "American" way to think.
it's not a mandate from God, it just works really really well. Capitalism is more natural than socialism. It works more fluidly to build national wealth for everyone. Socialism has a variety of unitended consequences, which we have seen in countless countries around the world. Again, if you are so interested in socialism, you should move to a socialist country.
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Old 02-23-2006, 06:51 AM
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Default The thing that bothers some

about capitalism is that there is no free lunch. That means people win and lose based upon supply and demand for their labor or product. Lots of people dislike that, although it seems only fair. You get paid for what you provide. How is that bad? Especially since the opportunity to improve your lot is far easier than under any other system anyone has thought of.

They also dislike that while it creates massive wealth, the wealth is not distributed equally. But why should it be? Under what moral principle is stealing from the productive to give to the non-productive acceptable? It's OK to steal from me because you made crappy decisions?

I think everyone supports governmental and private-based help for people suffering mental disorders and certainly everyone is entitled to food and shelter. But to suggest that we "equalize" things is immoral.
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