I disagree with this. Whenever I go back to Cleveland, I feel like crap when I see my boys back there struggling to just be able to feed thier families. I probably don't work even 1/3 as hard as they do, yet easily make 3 times the income. So maybe "hard work" and "productivity" aren't equatable. I know white collar fellows that aren't really all that productive, yet make 500 grand a year. It would seem that wealth distibution isn't all that dependent on "hard work" or "productivity". I'm not claiming that I know what the problem is or how to fix it, but I don't like people saying that the poor are poor and its thier own fault. I've been poor most of my life, and I (*)(*)(*)(*) well know this isn't true in most cases.

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Tiger got to hunt, Bird got to fly, Man got to sit and wonder 'Why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, Bird got to land, Man got to tell himself he understand.
~Bokonon

I think it is supposed to be social justice.

Interesting concept.

And why is that my fault? What did I do to them that should result in a transfer of my money to them? They made the choice to have a family on a small income. And so they struggle. Predictable. Kids are expensive.

Of course they are not.

I never said it was. People THINK that's true, but it's not. It has nothing to do with it. In a capitalist system labor is a product. And like all products it's priced according to supply and demand. It has nothing to do with hard work. You could work 90 hours a week as a janitor and make far less than a brain surgeon who does one three hour operation per day. And it's not only how productive you are. It's WHAT you are producing that matters.

As a blanket statement that is far more true than it is false (although there are certainly exceptions). If you look at your average poor person you can pretty easily point to the reasons they are poor. And it's generally because they made choices that resulted in them not having any money. But as I said, exceptions do indeed exist. I suspect if you honestly examine why you were poor you could point to plenty of things you did to cause it. And plenty you did to fix it.

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I wasn't born with enough middle fingers.

I didn't say it was your fault any more than its my fault. And kids or not, they're all struggling.

[quote="stekim";p="212019"]

I know that, it was my point. And that is exactly whats wrong with capitalism.

Ahh, but see, the janitor is much more important than the brain surgeon. The janitor lowers the chances of disease being spread throughout the population, whereas the brain surgeon just keeps a few people alive for a little bit longer. In fact, I develop software, which increases efficiency in business processes, and that isn't nearly as important as what a janitor does.

Of course there are exceptions. The people that just decide not to work, well, I just have no love for them. But in my experience, they are in the minority.

In my experience, not true.

I was born into a poor family, in a poor neigborhood, in a poor city. That's the reason for my being poor for the first 18 years of my life and that had nothing to do with any decision I made. Then the following 7 or 8 years, my being poor had to do with the fact that I was trying to change my situation, by putting myself through college. But I would have never been able to change my situation in this way without certian opportunities and circumstances that most people in my hometown don't get.

Now, like I said, I don't have any answers, but there was a way, I would honestly take half my pay to allow the hard working poor of the country to have twice what they make. I personally (*)(*)(*)(*) well know I have way more than I need.

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Tiger got to hunt, Bird got to fly, Man got to sit and wonder 'Why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, Bird got to land, Man got to tell himself he understand.
~Bokonon

First of all, stekim, I was referring to worldwide starvation. Second, I base this area of my morality on the understanding that any two people who put equal effort into life should reap equal rewards. Laziness should be punished by poverty; bad luck and unintentional bad decisions should not. Finally, in reply to Hans, I don't like people trying to claim that they know their favorite economic system to be somehow part of a divine plan. I'm as devout a Christian as rockyreagan and my conscience leads me to very different conclusions about economics.

Well no, you weren't blaming me personally. But many "solutions" I've heard here and in other places seek to punish me for their choices.

Actually, IMO that's what RIGHT about it.

"Important" makes no difference whatsoever. The price of labor is not determined by how "important" someone is. That has no bearing on anything. Janitors get paid little because there is a huge supply of unskilled labor and a much smaller demand for it. Simple as that.

I am not only talking about them. I am also talking about those who choose to work in positions that pay little while taking no steps to improve their lot. It's their fault they are poor.

So was I. But I'm not talking about kids. I'm talking about adults.

I did that, too. That was your decision. As it was mine. You are actually helping me make my point. You CHOSE to go to school. Other did not. You helped yourself. They did not. They are poor. You are not. And it was entirely within your control and their control. Just like I said it was.

Are people in your town forbidden by law from going to college? Are there jobs they cannot train for via statute? If not, then why could you do it, but not them? Likely answer: They simply chose not to.

You are 100% free to give your money to anyone you wish. It's yours after all. I will more likely encourage them to help themselves and give them the tools they needed.

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I wasn't born with enough middle fingers.