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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 03-12-2006, 01:07 PM
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Default Culture and Language

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IMO, political correctness implies and is supported by various hypocrisies. A certain code of behavior and manner of speech when dealing with this group, another when dealing wth that group.
When taken to an extreme (and yes, I have sometimes been guilty of taking it to an extreme), that is true. However, political correctness as it has most often been practiced consists of equalizing social treatment of various groups, often in how our language refers to them. It resembles the golden rule. Political correctness works on the principle that you shouldn't do something if you would resent the equivalent being done to you. I don't agree with her on some issues, but I thought Gloria Steinem illustrated this point brilliantly when she wrote this:

Take language for instance. Many women feel invisible or aberrant when they are subsumed under a masculine term that is supposed to be universal; yet they are often made to feel trivial and nit-picking if they object. But look at it this way: Would a man feel included in “womankind?” Would he refer to himself as a “chairwoman”, “Congresswoman” or “Mr. Mary Smith”? If a male student earned a “Spinster of Arts” degree, and a “Mistress of Science”, or had to apply for a “Sistership” would he feel equal in academia? If men had grown up seeing God portrayed only as Mother and She, would they feel equal godliness within themselves?
In Spanish and Italian, the words you are referring to are feminine in that use. In other words, they would refer to a woman. In the plural or mixed company, the masculine is used to cover all bases. In the singular, the gender of the person in question decides the form. Most English words do not have masculine and feminine forms.
That is irrelevant even if it is correct. You didn't address the point Steinem made about the English language. Would the wording Steinem used to invert our language's traditions offend you? Would it bother you if humanity were referred to as "womankind"? Would it bother you if you were in Congress and regularly called a "Congresswoman"? If you were married, would it bother you to be called by your wife's name? How about being a "Spinster of Arts", a "Mistress of Science" or being part of a "sistership"? Would it bother you if everyone referred to God exclusively as "She"? If the answer is yes to any of these questions, then to be fair you have to recognize the truth in what Steinem wrote.
Well, that was my response. So if it is correct, I suppose it could not be irrelevant. Attaching gender to words in a language which, for the most part, does not assume gender, is part of what causes me to chuckle at feminists. Yes, they nit-pick and complain about everything from words to the sexual abuse of cows being milked on a farm.

"Man" is simply a word with three letters. It may apply to a species or to a gender. In the word "mankind", no gender is implied. Only the feminists get wound up and infer something that is not there.

As for being called by my wife's name, no, that wouldn't work, as that is not part of my belief system. If some feminist doesn't like that, too bad. She(he) will get over it or she won't. But she wouldn't have to take my name either. In the multi-page pre-nup, I would be glad to make sure her maiden name was clearly spelled out.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 03-12-2006, 01:21 PM
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Indeed, all ideologies are totalitarian because the essence of an ideology (I would note that conservatism correctly understood is not an ideology) is to take some philosophy and say on the basis of this philosophy certain things must be true –
This is as far as I got before I cracked up and fell out of my seat. I'll have to remember tat when trying to push my own political agenda. "Well, you see my assumptions about reality don't comprise an ideology- because mine are true."
You really need to take political correctness for what it really is: a dumb idea, a misguided and not-very-well thought out technique for destroying the legacy of racism. Far be it from me to keep you from living in a fantasy world of communist conspiracies- it is better for your entertainment and mine- but please watch for blatant obvious BS. It ruins the suspension of disbelief for you and the quality of the comedy for me.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 03-12-2006, 01:26 PM
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Default Good point

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You really need to take political correctness for what it really is: a dumb idea, a misguided and not-very-well thought out technique for destroying the legacy of racism.
Add in sexism and a lot of other bad ism's.

Just can't play up medicine that's nearly as bad as the disease.
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Old 03-12-2006, 01:27 PM
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IMO, political correctness implies and is supported by various hypocrisies. A certain code of behavior and manner of speech when dealing with this group, another when dealing wth that group.
When taken to an extreme (and yes, I have sometimes been guilty of taking it to an extreme), that is true. However, political correctness as it has most often been practiced consists of equalizing social treatment of various groups, often in how our language refers to them. It resembles the golden rule. Political correctness works on the principle that you shouldn't do something if you would resent the equivalent being done to you. I don't agree with her on some issues, but I thought Gloria Steinem illustrated this point brilliantly when she wrote this:

Take language for instance. Many women feel invisible or aberrant when they are subsumed under a masculine term that is supposed to be universal; yet they are often made to feel trivial and nit-picking if they object. But look at it this way: Would a man feel included in “womankind?” Would he refer to himself as a “chairwoman”, “Congresswoman” or “Mr. Mary Smith”? If a male student earned a “Spinster of Arts” degree, and a “Mistress of Science”, or had to apply for a “Sistership” would he feel equal in academia? If men had grown up seeing God portrayed only as Mother and She, would they feel equal godliness within themselves?
In Spanish and Italian, the words you are referring to are feminine in that use. In other words, they would refer to a woman. In the plural or mixed company, the masculine is used to cover all bases. In the singular, the gender of the person in question decides the form. Most English words do not have masculine and feminine forms.
That is irrelevant even if it is correct. You didn't address the point Steinem made about the English language. Would the wording Steinem used to invert our language's traditions offend you? Would it bother you if humanity were referred to as "womankind"? Would it bother you if you were in Congress and regularly called a "Congresswoman"? If you were married, would it bother you to be called by your wife's name? How about being a "Spinster of Arts", a "Mistress of Science" or being part of a "sistership"? Would it bother you if everyone referred to God exclusively as "She"? If the answer is yes to any of these questions, then to be fair you have to recognize the truth in what Steinem wrote.
"Man" is simply a word with three letters. It may apply to a species or to a gender. In the word "mankind", no gender is implied. Only the feminists get wound up and infer something that is not there.
Well, that is debatable but possibly true. I believe that some feminists would agree with you. Some would probably claim (I apologize if I am wrong about this) that since "man" is associated with power, it is empowering to be referred to as a man in some sense. There are several schools of feminism on this and many other matters. I am not dogmatic about the point either way (note my signature).

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As for being called by my wife's name, no, that wouldn't work, as that is not part of my belief system. If some feminist doesn't like that, too bad. She(he) will get over it or she won't. But she wouldn't have to take my name either.
That's fair enough. To be honest, this thread turned into a heated debate largely because Jellyfish and I have been like oil and water since he took the opposite extreme when I was going on one of my (now admittedly) extreme rants.
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Old 03-12-2006, 01:53 PM
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Ultimately, the problem is not so much bigoted language as it is bigoted beliefs. Those beliefs can be changed only to a limited extent by changing language (by changing thinking habits), and those in the rotten core of prejudice will harbor their bigotry no matter what language norms are. What parents teach their children is very important in forming unprejudiced beliefs, and actions speak louder than words. If men lead sexist lifestyles, if whites condone racism when it is politically or commercially expedient and so forth, they won't set a decent example for future generations no matter how they talk.
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Old 03-12-2006, 02:47 PM
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Ultimately, the problem is not so much bigoted language as it is bigoted beliefs. Those beliefs can be changed only to a limited extent by changing language (by changing thinking habits), and those in the rotten core of prejudice will harbor their bigotry no matter what language norms are.
Eventually the totalitarian PC regime will implant thought cleansing devices (AKA mind control) to regulate racist and antisocial thoughts.
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What parents teach their children is very important in forming unprejudiced beliefs, and actions speak louder than words. If men lead sexist lifestyles, if whites condone racism when it is politically or commercially expedient and so forth, they won't set a decent example for future generations no matter how they talk.
Political Correctness seems to suffer from the problem of being prejudiced to prejudiced beliefs. They discriminate people that discriminate. They hate the people that hate.
This seems similar to the problem of evil begetting evil.
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Old 03-12-2006, 02:53 PM
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Eventually the totalitarian PC regime will implant thought cleansing devices (AKA mind control)...
... And don't forget about the black federal helicopters.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 03-12-2006, 04:52 PM
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Default I agree with most of that

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Ultimately, the problem is not so much bigoted language as it is bigoted beliefs. Those beliefs can be changed only to a limited extent by changing language (by changing thinking habits), and those in the rotten core of prejudice will harbor their bigotry no matter what language norms are. What parents teach their children is very important in forming unprejudiced beliefs, and actions speak louder than words. If men lead sexist lifestyles, if whites condone racism when it is politically or commercially expedient and so forth, they won't set a decent example for future generations no matter how they talk.
But I would say it's bigoted actions, more so than language or beliefs, that is the problem. I believe you implied that later in your post.

I agree fully that what parents teach their children is very important. The difference may be that I don't need to know the gender, race or religion of the person involved before I decide whether an action is bigoted or not.
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Old 03-13-2006, 05:45 AM
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I understand your position, Force insofar as beliefs being part of the problem. But I don't believe that making attempts to control language will help. People merely make up new racial slurs or the PC terms of today become the racial slurs of tomorrow. PC only hides racism. Only integration of diverse groups and time will destroy the racism that has carried on. PC does nothing to destroy stereotypes inside peoples' minds. It only creates backlash.
But I still think people who believe PC or pretty much anything else are part of some Communist conspiracy should go to the store immediately to get some tinfoil. It will help block the transmissions from the black helicopters.
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Old 03-13-2006, 06:14 AM
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PC only hides racism.
If you haven’t noticed, it also suppresses freedom of speech.
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Only integration of diverse groups and time will destroy the racism that has carried on. PC does nothing to destroy stereotypes inside peoples' minds. It only creates backlash.
Christianity tries to win people over.
PC uses Forced social engineering.
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But I still think people who believe PC or pretty much anything else are part of some Communist conspiracy should go to the store immediately to get some tinfoil.
The assertion was “Political Correctness is cultural Marxism.”
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