Originally Posted by Shamgar";p=&quot

What zealot doesn't have an "agenda" . . . farce doesn't have an agenda? the jews he bows down to don't have an agenda. . . Your questions weren't answered? Did you read the full article? Doubtful. . .

LRB | Vol. 28 No. 6 dated 23 March 2006 | John Mearsheimer
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html
The Israel Lobby
John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt

. . . . have you read Tony Martin's book?. . .Doubtful. . .

Furthermore, all kinds of Jews, from the Marxist radicals to the redoubtable “Prof.” Adelson of the Jewish Press, generalize about “the Jews” when it suits them. The “some Jews” business is yet another red herring and attempt at special rules for the Jews.

Tony Martin, “The Jewish Onslaught: Despatches from the Wellesley Battlefront” ISBN 0912469307 (Dover: 1993). Page 37.

. . have you read Paul Findley's book which mirrors the claims of the Harvard professors? . . .Doubtful. . . .

In short, when a lobby [AIPAC: American Israel Public Affairs Committee] stifles free speech nationally on one contoversial topic – the Middle East – all free speech is threatened.

Paul Findely, (former Republican Congressman of Illinois for 22 years) “They Dare to Speak Out: People and Institutions Confront Israel's Lobby,” (Westport: 1985) Page 332.

Most Congressional actions affecting Middle East policy are either approved or inititated by AIPAC. [AIPAC: American Israel Public Affairs Committee]

Paul Findely, (former Republican Congressman of Illinois for 22 years) “They Dare to Speak Out: People and Institutions Confront Israel's Lobby,” (Westport: 1985) Page 32.

Almost without exception, House and Senate members do its bidding, because most of them consider AIPAC to be the direct Capitol Hill representative of a political force that can make or break their chances at election time.

Paul Findley, “They Dare Speak Out: People and Institutions Confront Israel's Lobby” (Westport: 1985) p. 25

In practice, the lobby groups [AIPAC, ADL, AJC] function as an informal extension of the Israeli government. This was illustrated when AIPAC helped draft the official statement defending Israel's 1981 bombing of the Iraqi nuclear reactor, then issued it the same hour as Israel's embassy. No major Jewish organization ever publicly takes issue with positions and policies adopted by Israel. Thomas A. Dine, executive director of AIPAC, spoke warmly of President Reagan's peace plan when it was announced in September 1982, but as soon as Israel rejected the plan Dine fell silent.
Paul Findley, “They Dare Speak Out: People and Institutions Confront Israel's Lobby” (Westport: 1985) p. 26-27.

. . . . .so chances are you are the typical lazy person who needs someone to give you 'predigested' info in one or two sentences so you can give it "your" thumbs up or down. . . it appears your agenda is sloth. . . . .

Propaganda cannot be satisfied with partial success, for it does not tolerate discussion. As long as noticeable or expressed tension or a conflict of action remains, propaganda cannot be said to have accomplished its aim. It must produce quasi-unanimity, and the opposing faction must be negligible, or in any case sense to be vocal. Extreme propaganda must win over the adversary and at least use him by integrating him into its own frame of reference.

Jaques Ellul, “Propaganda: The Formation of Men's Attitudes” (New York: 1973) Page 11.

For action makes propaganda 's effect irreversible.(3) He who acts in obedience to propaganda can never go back. He is now obligated to believe in the propaganda because of his past action. He is obligated to believe from it his justification and authority, without which his action will seem to him absurd or unjust, which would be intolerable. He is obligated to continue to advance in the direction indicated by propaganda, for action demands more action. He is what one calls committed – which is certainly what the Communist party anticipates, for example, and what the Nazis accomplished.

Jaques Ellul, “Propaganda: The Formation of Men's Attitudes” (New York: 1973) Page 29.

It is a well known that in Western countries propaganda is particularly effective in the upper segment of the working class and in the middle class. It faces much greater problems with the proletariat or the peasantry.

Jacque Ellul, “Propaganda: The Formation of Men's Attitudes.” (New York: 1973) Page 105.

Originally Posted by alanH";p=&quot

LoSconosciuto, if your question is mistakenly thought to mean something else, go ahead and take a look at the name of this thread. We're conversing in a thread that uses the derogatory "Jew" rather than "Jewish." Shamgar might well have said "Kike" but he's apparently trying to maintain a veneer of intellectualism. Not successfully, but whatever. So, if we ask, what does the Israeli lobbying efforts get, or what are they looking for, then that's a perfectly reasonable question. If we ask, what does the ZOG do for its Jew puppetmasters, then that's probably not as fair a question...unless you're Hitler Jr. like our friend here.

Originally Posted by alanH";p=&quot

Lo, I'm not "changing the topic," I'm explaining why it might be automatic that your straightforward question is taken inaccurately. If you're asking what it is that Israel gets for its lobbying efforts, I'd say it would be very hard to quantify, but it would be that it gets its points of view front and center, gets its side of the debate heard, and yes it no doubt helps when it comes time to decide who gets funding.

One thing about lobbying, though. It's not always that a lobbying group gets something in the way of a quid pro quo--that the target politician or group is an objective entity that would perform a service otherwise not performed. It's also common for lobbyists to support pols they know agree with them. So when that happens, it's not a direct quid pro quo. It's like when the NRA supports pro-gun candidates, even if there is no legislation to be voted on.

Originally Posted by alanH";p=&quot

Lo, had I met you over a beer, and not in this forum, I wouldn't have made the assumptions I did. My apologies.